If a client takes his money back

[Camille]

What happened would be considered robbery..unless he forced sex on you..paid or otherwise. I am fortunate enough not to have fallen into the rape category as several of the ladies above have and my hearts go out you. It happened to my oldest friend many years ago and it has completely changed her. She is always on her guard and always believes men have an agenda..simply because she didn't see it coming (it was an old friend that raped her). It's so very sad to see the impact it has on peoples lives. I was surprised when I worked briefly last year with men who were victims of domestic abuse how many had been raped by women. It was very difficult to watch them try and talk about it..because you know, this kind of thing "just doesn't happen to men." LE are very lacking in support of them...ugh..just horrible all round for men and women that are victims are rape.

I have been robbed though..and with the severe threat of violence. I don't think you can compare the two crimes as they are totally different in their affliction BUT both have the same impact; wondering when and how you are going to have to start fighting for your life. It radically changes your evaluation process of people and you really begin to doubt yourself at times. The one thing I will say, is the attack came from the ONLY man I have ever screened via employment information only. Ever since that day, I have refused to see anyone that cannot provide provider refs. That's just me though. That fool didnt care about his job or his marriage enough to refrain from doing what he did..and I did follow up. I followed up because I found out he had done it twice before (unreported) and each time his violence and confidence grew stronger. This came months of the heels of the CL killer..so I was more sensitive to putting a stop to it (at the cost of coming clean if necessary) than I might have been before. In all honesty, I would have probably just blacklisted the MoFo before.
I am sorry that any ladies have to go through any of the incidents decribed in the earlier posts..I really am and my heart goes out to you.

Big hugs ladies

C xxx

[ForumPoster]

Robbery. Even though both may leave you feeling similar emotions and possible PSSD, to compare robbery to rape is essentially degrading rape survivors.

Lina

[Camille]

I can understand why people keep saying comparing rape to robbery is degrading to victims if rape. Isn't the bottom line though..it's not about comparing the sex or the money..it's about the very real and impending comparative threat of losing your life which occurs in both. I think that is where Syd was going also with her comments. Apologies if I'm wrong Syd but that's how I read your post.

C x

[China Doll]

I think that this is clearly a subjective experience. Some women would feel completely violated if the money was taken from them after the appointment. This isn't to say that being held at gunpoint wouldn't be a worse experience, of course, but there are different levels of the trauma of rape.

When I started out at an agency, it wasn't my job to make sure that I got the money I was going to be paid. When a man left me $25 for a half hour session, I felt a little dirty and a little sick. Was I irreversibly traumatized? No. "Rape" would have been a very strong word. "Violated" would have been better.

So, I guess that this is my official opinion: If you're going to call it "rape," then there needs to be a clear distinction between this and the more traumatic forms of rape.

There was an interesting story I read not too long ago. An Israeli Arab man was convicted of rape for leading the woman to believe that he was Jewish. The man pleaded guilty to "rape by deception." He received a sentence of 18 months in prison.

[AveryMoore]

Originally Posted by China Doll

There was an interesting story I read not too long ago. An Israeli Arab man was convicted of rape for leading the woman to believe that he was Jewish. The man pleaded guilty to "rape by deception." He received a sentence of 18 months in prison.

Good point, China Doll. In Canada, there was a similar court case involving a woman who had sex with her boyfriend's twin brother, thinking he was her boyfriend. The man was convicted of sexual assault (probably the more appropriate term than rape) and sentenced to six months. While I think it's important not to only define rape as something done under threat of death or with use of violence, as this is the type of thinking that punishes victims for not struggling enough, I understand entirely why some of the women here disagree that taking the money is a form of rape.

Not everyone would feel comfortable doing this, but I knew a woman who ran an agency and who would report men who didn't pay to the police. She was firm in her stance that no one was doing anything illegal (since she advertised the services of the women as being private dancing/modeling) and said on more than one occasion that the police existed to serve her and her employees, as they did all other citizens She was unusually savvy, though, and her agency had never been through a raid/arrest. I'm sure a woman with a previous run in with local police would be more reticent to report a man not paying her—although now that I think about it, I also know a transgendered women who usually works on the streets, and she responded to her assault at the hands of an officer by walking down to the station and filing a report! Got to respect someone with that type of courage....

[charlestudor2005]

Just an observation:

• The ladies here tend to talk about how they feel, and so there are a lot who categorize this as rape
• The men here tend to talk about the subject objectively, and refuse to categorize this as rape

My question is: did this happen at the incall, or her place?

Seems like this is the reaction that most people have to burglary. Most people have a visceral reaction to being burgled because of the invasion of personal, private space that takes place in the criminal act. It feels like a rape, even though no sex act has occurred.

And I think men and women react differently to a burglary. Women want to move.

In this kind of case, especially if this happened at the OP's home (where she should have felt safe), I can understand the feeling.

[HoneyRose]

I would consider it robbery.

Here's an analogy: If you were hired to drive someone to another state and then he wouldn't pay you, that wouldn't be considered kidnapping even though there's no way you would have driven with him to that state had he not offered to pay.

This reminds me of a case a few years ago where the judge ruled that having sex with a prostitute at gunpoint and not paying was "theft of services", not rape.

http://www.feministe.us/blog/archives/2007/10/16/when-is-rape-at-gunpoint-not-rape-when-its-theft-of-services/

It was absoutely bizarre! The lady had agreed to have sex with one man. He put a gun to her head and forced her to have unprotected sex with several others. The judge was kookoo to not see that as rape! (Not to mention that charging for those services is illegal so how could the judge make that ruling? Would she have ordered buyers to reimburse drug dealers or hitmen if they hadn't paid?)

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by HoneyRose

I would consider it robbery.

...

It was absoutely bizarre! The lady had agreed to have sex with one man. He put a gun to her head and forced her to have sex with several others. The judge was kookoo to not see that as rape!

Agree^2

A better analogy is instead of paying nothing, your fee was $400 and he only put $200 in the envelope. Is that theft or partial rape?

[Laurentius]

The word "rape" first entered the English lexicon with a meaning of "to seize, to carry off by force, to plunder."

So I can understand the tremendous similarity of feelings.

I had a couple of business partners rip me off for my (then) life savings. They had been friends of mine for years. I had diapered their babies. To say I felt violated would be an understatement. (Later, they failed and I succeeded. Karma, in a sense.)

On the other hand, I have considerable daily dealings with a woman who was a victim of multiple-attacker non-consensual sex; and if her situation is any indication; there is a qualitative and quantitative difference in the reaction and severity between being gang-raped and having money stolen.

When we define things, we cannot define them simply by feelings or similarity of feelings. When we do so, we leave open practically any interpretation; and not all such interpretations will be made by people of pure heart and intent.

What we must use is facts.

As we define rape it is non-consensual sex.

Consent can be withdrawn before or even during sex; but it cannot be withdrawn afterwards for an act already accomplished.

Some have argued that the consent was secured by promise of payment; which means that withdrawal of the payment invalidates the consent. Not so.

Sex is often secured through subterfuge.

People -- both men and women alike -- often misrepresent themselves in material ways in order to mislead a potential sex partner into an act they would not otherwise have performed had they known the truth of things.

Some providers lie about their age. A lot of men set specific search criteria to exclude women over a certain age. If a woman secures sex with a man by lying about her age and he later discovers her lie -- has he been raped?

Likewise, some women have been known to take advantage of beer-goggles worn by men, etc. Some men misrepresent their wealth in order to secure sex with a woman who wouldn't have agreed to sex with someone with a much lower net worth.

Hell, I know a woman who had previously been an escort and somehow managed to forget that part in the "sexual history" part of her discussions with her future husband. Was he raped?

While all of these sorts of situations are arguably deplorable, they are not rape.

They undoubtedly feel bad, and I don't want to diminish them in any way.

But as someone intimately familiar with the psychological aftermath of a gang rape; I do not believe the two situations are equivalent.

[Rudyard K]

Well written LT. I think of a lot of the guys view such a question under legal terms. And in fact, it is neither rape or robbery in legal terms because it is only alleged at this point…and a full hearing of the facts, and a ruling by the appropriate judicial venue, has not occurred.

As CT said, I think women tend to view the question under more colloquial terms. As such, very likely both rape and robbery has occurred. Because these are viewed in a more “How did it feel?” manner.

I’m not sure which she was trying to ask.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by Sensual Lina

Robbery. Even though both may leave you feeling similar emotions and possible PSSD, to compare robbery to rape is essentially degrading rape survivors.
Lina

Perhaps. But i think one thing that most are losing sight of is the fact that she stated he took the money back "with force". He didn't simply "short her" as PJ's analogy would suggest. Not knowing exactly what the OP means by "with force", let's assume the connotation is that the client threw her down, forced himself on top of her, struggled with her, choked her, bruised her, and even sprained her wrist while trying to get the money out of her hand. Would that change things as opposed to simply grabbing the envelope off the table on the way out the door? Would the fact that the violence occurred after the act be all that much different than if the violence occurred before and during the act? Is forcing someone into sex all that much different than having sex and then forcing it to be uncompensated? Maybe it is, and feel free to set me right.

In other words, while i see your point (and my immediate reaction was pretty similar to yours) i think the level of violence during the encounter would potentially add additional context. It may very well still be apples to oranges either way, but i don't know if it would always reach the level of being degrading or insulting to rape survivors to wonder about the comparison.

[swpaul]

robbery

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by Laurentius

Consent can be withdrawn before or even during sex; but it cannot be withdrawn afterwards for an act already accomplished.

Perfectly worded.

Originally Posted by Doove

. But i think one thing that most are losing sight of is the fact that she stated he took the money back "with force".

Wouldn't that be the very definition of robbery? At most you could throw in assault.

After my post I was asked if in my two incidents the money was taken from me by force. It was not because I did not resist when I realized what was going to happen. Having had been in a violent situation with a man - that's not something I'm going to risk repeating in the name of money. I'm already trapped in the room with a guy who is obviously not play with a full deck of cards. What's done is done - I'll fight for my life, but not for money.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

Wouldn't that be the very definition of robbery? At most you could throw in assault.

I won't disagree. And while most cases of theft and assault aren't centered around a sexual act, I tried to be careful to not leave the impression that i considered it rape. Perhaps i failed. I was only attempting to suggest that, based on possible omitted details, it might not have been such an insult to rape victims to raise the comparison. From a legal perspective, even my scenario would likely be considered assault and theft. But from an everyday perspective, i think the 2 could be considered pretty close.

And before you go off on me, let me concede that being a guy, i'm sure i'm not speaking from a fully qualified viewpoint, perspective wise. I'm just trying to offer what is my perspective.

[Camille]

Originally Posted by Doove

I won't disagree. And while most cases of theft and assault aren't centered around a sexual act, I tried to be careful to not leave the impression that i considered it rape. Perhaps i failed. I was only attempting to suggest that, based on possible omitted details, it might not have been such an insult to rape victims to raise the comparison. From a legal perspective, even my scenario would likely be considered assault and theft. But from an everyday perspective, i think the 2 could be considered pretty close.

And before you go off on me, let me concede that being a guy, i'm sure i'm not speaking from a fully qualified viewpoint, perspective wise. I'm just trying to offer what is my perspective.

Doove, I can completely see your point. It is similar to the point I was trying to make about both rape and robbery by force being violent acts. That is the comparsion...violence against the person against their will. Lauren, I didn't fight back either..but it didn't stop the violence. I believe I posted about it on here at the time. As soon as it became clear to me that he had planned this what was to say he hadn't also planned to bring a weapon? No money is worth your life. There was no discussion about the money, just an unexpected struggle and he eventually left money in hand.

C