Input Requested: Sex Worker Rights Issues

[Katy Alexander]

Originally Posted by LynetteMarie

I'm working on a project and I'd appreciate some insight from the vast amount of collective wisdom here.

Aside from the broad concept of decriminalizing sex work, what are your passions surrounding this little world of ours? That is, what are some specific topics that resonate with you as an individual regarding sex worker rights?

Since our only example in this country of legalized prostitution are the brothels in Nevada I guess that my biggest fear would be of that ending up as the result of making it legal in other states as well.

I am not a fan of the Nevada brothels because it is the owners who are doing well from the legal status, and everyone else is just getting screwed. I just hope that if the US is serious about legalizing sex work that people look at other country's where it has been successful where women are still able to remain independent, and not just end up exploited by a restrictive system.

[Rudyard K]

Originally Posted by Absinthe1912

(1) Most people don’t want it happening in their backyards. These concerns can be effectively addressed through business zoning laws.

Putting a lot of the other "legal" issues aside, I think this would be the hardest (or certainly very hard) thing to deal with.

Most residential neighborhoods (and residential includes apartments, folks) have local zoning laws that prohibit running a business from your home. That is any business...even internet web desgin...done is the privacy of your little home office. Does it happen all the time? Absolutely!! But it violates local zoning laws. And having the law in place allows local municipalities the ability to come down on the home business owner should his home business become a nuisance to his neighbors. Unfortunately, such nuisance factor includes "PITA" neighbors as well as "live and let live" neighbors.

That is probably why, even in Nevada, it is only allowed in brothels. One can try and argue that the motivation of the neighbor to "call one out" is because the business is prostitution rather than web page design...but it is hard to "prove" motivation in the court room. There are all kinds of "ostensibly rational" reasons for not wanting a business in a residential area. Strangers coming and going to the neighborhood...excess traffic...additional burden on services to the neighborhood (police, fire, sewer, water, etc)...and on and on. And all you have to do is have one or two things go wrong, and it spoils the idea for everyone.

So, I'm not sure how, even if all laws prohibiting prositution evaporate, that it will be allowed in the areas where providers would like it to be allowed (your home, your apartment, or even a rented incall location)...as opposed to a brothel type arrangement.

Nevertheless, I could see that the outcall world (in a non-illegal environment) could work. Such a "service" would be no different than the cleaning lady coming to clean your house, or the plumber coming to clean you pipes (pun, intended ).

[Katy Alexander]

You make a good point.That is why I have always been a little leery of the idea of fully legalizing prostitution.In theory of course it should be legal, but unfortunately in reality it is a lot more complicated than we may realize.

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Putting a lot of the other "legal" issues aside, I think this would be the hardest (or certainly very hard) thing to deal with.

Most residential neighborhoods (and residential includes apartments, folks) have local zoning laws that prohibit running a business from your home. That is any business...even internet web desgin...done is the privacy of your little home office. Does it happen all the time? Absolutely!! But it violates local zoning laws. And having the law in place allows local municipalities the ability to come down on the home business owner should his home business become a nuisance to his neighbors. Unfortunately, such nuisance factor includes "PITA" neighbors as well as "live and let live" neighbors.

That is probably why, even in Nevada, it is only allowed in brothels. One can try and argue that the motivation of the neighbor to "call one out" is because the business is prostitution rather than web page design...but it is hard to "prove" motivation in the court room. There are all kinds of "ostensibly rational" reasons for not wanting a business in a residential area. Strangers coming and going to the neighborhood...excess traffic...additional burden on services to the neighborhood (police, fire, sewer, water, etc)...and on and on. And all you have to do is have one or two things go wrong, and it spoils the idea for everyone.

So, I'm not sure how, even if all laws prohibiting prositution evaporate, that it will be allowed in the areas where providers would like it to be allowed (your home, your apartment, or even a rented incall location)...as opposed to a brothel type arrangement.

Nevertheless, I could see that the outcall world (in a non-illegal environment) could work. Such a "service" would be no different than the cleaning lady coming to clean your house, or the plumber coming to clean you pipes (pun, intended ).

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Putting a lot of the other "legal" issues aside, I think this would be the hardest (or certainly very hard) thing to deal with.

Most residential neighborhoods (and residential includes apartments, folks) have local zoning laws that prohibit running a business from your home. That is any business...even internet web desgin...done is the privacy of your little home office. Does it happen all the time? Absolutely!! But it violates local zoning laws. And having the law in place allows local municipalities the ability to come down on the home business owner should his home business become a nuisance to his neighbors. Unfortunately, such nuisance factor includes "PITA" neighbors as well as "live and let live" neighbors.

That is probably why, even in Nevada, it is only allowed in brothels. One can try and argue that the motivation of the neighbor to "call one out" is because the business is prostitution rather than web page design...but it is hard to "prove" motivation in the court room. There are all kinds of "ostensibly rational" reasons for not wanting a business in a residential area. Strangers coming and going to the neighborhood...excess traffic...additional burden on services to the neighborhood (police, fire, sewer, water, etc)...and on and on. And all you have to do is have one or two things go wrong, and it spoils the idea for everyone.

So, I'm not sure how, even if all laws prohibiting prositution evaporate, that it will be allowed in the areas where providers would like it to be allowed (your home, your apartment, or even a rented incall location)...as opposed to a brothel type arrangement.

Nevertheless, I could see that the outcall world (in a non-illegal environment) could work. Such a "service" would be no different than the cleaning lady coming to clean your house, or the plumber coming to clean you pipes (pun, intended ).

I think the model a number of other countries have with "sex work zones," for lack of a better descriptor, is pretty workable. If you want it you can find it, but it is kept away from general tourists and the part of the population (including kids) that doesn't want it in their face.

Another issue with legalization is with it likely comes regulation, licensing, etc. (all in the name of public health of course), which doesn't help the ladies that want to do this completely UTR.

[Absinthe1912]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

I think the model a number of other countries have with "sex work zones," for lack of a better descriptor, is pretty workable. If you want it you can find it, but it is kept away from general tourists and the part of the population (including kids) that doesn't want it in their face.

I think the German model works very nicely. Even for street-level they have designated streets and times. There are independent providers for both in-call and out-call.

The Nevada brothel system is not the only model available. From what I've heard the Nevada system has very oppressive working conditions. The German model is along the lines of a regular job.

[..]

Originally Posted by Absinthe1912

I think the German model works very nicely. Even for street-level they have designated streets and times. There are independent providers for both in-call and out-call.

The Nevada brothel system is not the only model available. From what I've heard the Nevada system has very oppressive working conditions. The German model is along the lines of a regular job.

Germany has one of the most progressive and modern laws in this regard. Thus free-willed sex-work is legal and one has -- at least from a legal POV -- minimal rights as sex worker. And a clear seperation of the human trafficking from free-will sexwork.)

(Politically it was a coalition btwn. the Greens and the Socialist Party which made these positive changes in Germany.)

That said the "sex work zones" in Germany are a much older thing and up to this day very problematic. They tend to lead to turf wars btwn. pimps, cat-fights and price-dumping which leads to "maisons d’abattage" and horrible ghettoization.


What works quite well are "protection zones" instead of "sex work zones".
Thus the sexwork is distributed across the whole city, except around schools, churches and kindergartens, etc. are "sex-free banning miles" (called: "Schutzzonen" = protection zones)

[..]

Originally Posted by ..

Germany has one of the most progressive and modern laws in this regard. Thus free-willed sex-work is legal and one has -- at least from a legal POV -- minimal rights as sex worker.

maybe paragraph this needs clarification...
In Germany the laws re. free-will sexwork are good enough to give the sexworker just as well as the client/consumer enough and fair rights in a legal dispute.

In practice such legal disputes almost never happen since once you go to court with such a dispute you've "outed" yourself.

[Absinthe1912]

Originally Posted by ..

Germany has one of the most progressive and modern laws in this regard. Thus free-willed sex-work is legal and one has -- at least from a legal POV -- minimal rights as sex worker. And a clear seperation of the human trafficking from free-will sexwork.)

(Politically it was a coalition btwn. the Greens and the Socialist Party which made these positive changes in Germany.)

That said the "sex work zones" in Germany are a much older thing and up to this day very problematic. They tend to lead to turf wars btwn. pimps, cat-fights and price-dumping which leads to "maisons d’abattage" and horrible ghettoization.


What works quite well are "protection zones" instead of "sex work zones".
Thus the sexwork is distributed across the whole city, except around schools, churches and kindergartens, etc. are "sex-free banning miles" (called: "Schutzzonen" = protection zones)

I believe you are speaking about the 2002 law that was passed legalizing prostitution. Before then it was decriminalized and wide spread. My experience was in Berlin in the mid 1990s. It looks like they used the "Schutzzonen" system. It was a system that worked and worked well. I saw no ill effects.

[MrGiz]

I am not going to pretend to know many of the minute details between the two.... but I lean more toward "decriminalization" than I do "legalization".

[dearhunter]

Before Houston had what we have come to call "black tuesday", prostitution was as close to legal as it could be without actually having legal status.

We had it pretty good.

Legalizing prositution bring on a whole different set of issues.

Decriminalization works for me.

[boardman]

Houston doesn't have those pesky zoning laws. I'm just saying.

[..]

Originally Posted by Absinthe1912

I believe you are speaking about the 2002 law that was passed legalizing prostitution. Before then it was decriminalized and wide spread. My experience was in Berlin in the mid 1990s. It looks like they used the "Schutzzonen" system. It was a system that worked and worked well. I saw no ill effects.

I agree mostly with your perspective of a certain german city, at a certain time. Only how the "Sperrbezirke" / "Sperrgebiete" /"Schutzzonen" are implemented varies greatly from town to town.

re. "sexworker rights" (the topic of this thread), you are correct in year 2002 prostitution was legalized in Germany.

Part of it is the "ProstG" (= German Prostitution Act), which among other things grants at least "basic" or minimal worker rights (while in the US you have essentially no rights!)

However what made prostitution (finally) legal was that is no longer "sittenwidrig" in Germany. Strictly speaking "sittenwidrig" is the "contra bonos mores et decorum" from Roman Law, which in contemporary anglosaxon law is "contra bonos mores", "contrary to good morals" or any other "unconscionability" (in the legal sense of the word!!).

[..]

Originally Posted by Rudyard K

Most residential neighborhoods (and residential includes apartments, folks) have local zoning laws that prohibit running a business from your home. That is any business...even internet web desgin...done is the privacy of your little home office. Does it happen all the time? Absolutely!! But it violates local zoning laws. And having the law in place allows local municipalities the ability to come down on the home business owner should his home business become a nuisance to his neighbors. Unfortunately, such nuisance factor includes "PITA" neighbors as well as "live and let live" neighbors.

Word!

[..]

Originally Posted by LynetteMarie

Aside from the broad concept of decriminalizing sex work, what are your passions surrounding this little world of ours? That is, what are some specific topics that resonate with you as an individual regarding sex worker rights?

decriminalizing sex work does not really help. (cf. situation in Canada). It needs to be legalized, otherwise it's totally absurd so talk about sex worker rights. You don't have any!

(Of course you have women's rights, but job related you don't have any "worker rights" as a sex worker in the US)

[texasgoldengirl]

The decrim model a la New Zealand is what sex worker activists in the US prefer. It's pretty much ideal for everyone involved. The NV brothel system is not preferred.

The term sex worker has been in use for about 30 years. It was coined by The Scarlet Harlot, a sex worker, as an umbrella term for those in adult entertainment who wish to fight for their rights as humans and as workers. Most other terms are either derogatory or paint sex workers as victims. (Or are simply industry-specific, like "stripper.")

Though some obviously associate sex worker with street prostitution, frankly, a whole lot of the population associates strippers with street prostitution as well. In fact, the argument can be made that short skirts and/or high heels are associated with street prostitution. I recently read an article about provacative clothing for kids being associated with street prostitution. (I conclude that everyone loves to think about hookers, but that's a different topic.)

Anyway...where's Holly? I'm fairly sure she's held forth on this a number of times over on the defunct HDH forum.

XX
Amanda