HONOR is it dead or on vaction

[Slowhanz]

I loved PF's one-liner.

I somewhat agree with Buckmaster. I don't think there's been a total loss of courtesy, but, like the economy, it has taken a serious hit. It's been a while in the making. It seems that such things just aren't taught or practiced as much these days. One can't help but wonder why? The comment about PC could explain it, or at least a chunk of it. Of course, what do you expect when those people are often the same people who don't cover their mouths when they sneeze or cough in public, act as if 'No Smoking,' 'No littering,' or 'No parking' signs don't apply to them, or treat everything and everyone around them as if the rest of the human race and its objects exist solely for their use, or that other people are lesser souls than are they? Does it happen more often in larger cities where one might tend to think that they more easily escape individual notice, or that no one's really watching, or that they blend in with the crowd? The brash ones simply 'dare' anyone to call them on their behavior.

I disagree with Doove's assessment of the 'gentility quotient' of NY vs the south. The day that NY, or maybe just NYC is considered 'generally' more genteel than anywhere south of the Mason-Dixon line will be the beginning of the end. In my work, I've met 'several' folks from metropolitan NY/NYC, and on the whole they believe themselves to be more superior, the only ones in the entire country with a clue. They're generally brash and brassy, and dismiss others with the same concern as a used food wrapper. The few rural NYers I've met do seem to be a different breed however; more like "everyone else." Some rural NYers don't even like the metro NYers. So even from my limited sample, NYers are evidently not entirely homogeneous, and that would be a good thing.

The change didn't have anything to do with whoever was or is the sitting president, though. It's a change in the parents. If your momma wasn't taught manners, chances are that you weren't either. It's related to the same missing parenting that causes the need for 'ethics' classes to be taught in college for Pete's sake..

Very occasionally, when I hold a door for someone and they don't say thank you, I say to them over my shoulder as they're passing through the door "you're welcome," whereupon they walk away even faster, or sometimes look back in mock horror.

Unfortunately, there is also the occasional woman who seemingly believes that to allow a man to hold a door for her is a sign of submission to, or tacit acknowledgment of an imagined subservience clause. They go out of their way to find cause to be insulted. I don't get it. I'll take my lumps on that one. More moments about which to shrug one's shoulders I suppose..

Cheers, y'all... ;-)

[Guest083011]

Ya gotta have a 'tude to survive in NYC, Sometimes they forget to turn that off when out of Metro NY. Believe it or not there are some very nice people inthe city. And there are some assholes in the mid-west and south too. Just depends who you hang with.

[Guest0812112]

Ya gotta have a 'tude to survive in NYC,



never have any true'er words been written

[Black Sedan]

I don't think it has anything to do with the President of the United States...I can't even get a glimmer of that touching the topic, they're all about as honorable as the next one... except Dick Cheney. He's got a convenient first name. Obama should be applauded for showing Americans to go on a date with their wives regularly. I'm sure that's the strong hand of Michelle showing.

Very little of the problem seems to be about chivalry either. I'm using that word in the 20th century vernacular. I think those people with a chip on their shoulder have mommy issues. There's always been social malcontents.

I've certainly crossed paths with assholes that decided to hide behind contract language instead of honoring the spirit of the deal, the handshake. "Oh my attorney says". Nice balls, blame some other guy for welching. Fiduciary duty and all that.

It's not war, and its been falling for a long time. There's just more people around with no honor, but there's more around with honor too.

[DreamWeaver69]

Originally Posted by Doove

Oh, i'm guessing there were contracts signed too.

Really? Insulting to have manners? Where? I'm 44 years old, and never once have i witnessed anyone seeming offended at the term "Sir" or "Ma'am". Or appearing insulted if someone showed some manners.

Again, maybe it's Oklahoma, but in New York i don't seem to have that problem. Oh sure, maybe at times other people will be in such a hurry, or have other things on their minds to where i don't get a thank you. But in a good 9 times out of 10, both the girls and the guys say thank you to me when i hold the door. And i say thank you when the door is held for me.

Then you understood her post better than i did, i guess. With it's vague nature, my assumption was simply that she was upset that a few guys showed up late for an appointment with her.....oh, and she wondered if it was all Obama's fault.

You're going to find both honorable people and dishonorable people no matter where you go and no matter when you go there. The dynamics might shift over time regarding ratios and percentages, but i really don't think we've gone from a society where you could take out a $2million loan on a handshake to where you can't. Because i don't think we were ever there.

I will make more of an effort, however, to spot the people who are insulted when i hold the door for them.

Geez, I'm amazed that someone has such insight into my life's experiences. Your assumption was correct about the land deals and contracts--but the contract nearly always followed the handshake to which I was referring to---never mentioned anything about a $2M dollar loan...completely different issue. But the situation where two people shake hands and agree on the deal and both follow through as they said they would is seldom, if ever done anymore without a contract as it was when I was growing up because trust and honor doesn't exist at the level today as it did then.

I'm glad you haven't had the same experiences as I have. I've traveled all over the world and experienced many different cultures, but I have never been to Buffalo NY, so I wouldn't be so presumptuous to say I share your perspective on the topic. I have been to NYC though....

Your response is typical of what I find in society...so many people feel compelled to question every little thing that is said as if world peace depended on them to correct it. You over generalized my statements...these were my experiences and observations of life--no right or wrong, no statistical data--just my thoughts on the topic.

Hope you have a great day!

[atlcomedy]

I find it kind of funny that the thread starter's stated age is 19, only a little ways into "adulthood" however that is defined. I would have expected it to be penned by someone is say their 50's, where they could observed changes over decades.

I'm in my 30's and I can't say I've obverved noticable changes in "honor" or "integrity" - some people have it; some people don't.

I have noticed huge changes in communication driven largely by technology that has resulted in greater informality.

On chivalry, I haven't noticed changes so much as huge differences between the workplace and rest of life. Workplaces are soooo damn PC that being a gentleman is a risk most don't want to take. I real shame, IMO.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

On chivalry, I haven't noticed changes so much as huge differences between the workplace and rest of life. Workplaces are soooo damn PC that being a gentleman is a risk most don't want to take. I real shame, IMO.

atl, you have a picture of Big Ben in your avatar for Gods sake! You're killing me

[WTF]

Originally Posted by chelsea simms

My question is what happened in the world to change all this ??

Originally Posted by discreetgent

(ie Title IX - .

Yep. This is the answer you seek chelsea though I still insist on bestowing honor upon your hooters!

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by chelsea simms

Senior or Junior or both maybe even a little florida Bush mixed in?

GWB=43

[Guest0812112]

Originally Posted by runswithscissors

Honor is not dead; as you say it may be on vacation; one would hope that maybe we just need a refresher course; to pause in our day to look up at people and nod and smile instead of looking down at our blackberries with our ear buds in.

this statement causes me to stop and wonder if I'm doing enough to reinvent honor and good manners in my everyday life and actions


WTF I will be honored for you to pay whatever you please to my boobs


ALT You are correct I am quite young, but have spent countless hours in the company of 40 to 60 plus year old guys watching their actions, manners and the way they conduct themselves. this is what I founded my comments on. and by the way as of today I,m no longer 19 I'm now 20

Over all I see honor and good manners both are still alive and kicking maybe like the whooping crane and the alligator they can make a recovery and become more noticeable in our daily routines xoxo chelsea

[Doove]

Originally Posted by Buckmaster222

never mentioned anything about a $2M dollar loan...completely different issue.

You're right. Rhetorically speaking, $2million loans are nothing like million dollar land deals.

Your assumption was correct about the land deals and contracts--but the contract nearly always followed the handshake to which I was referring to

edit

But the situation where two people shake hands and agree on the deal and both follow through as they said they would is seldom, if ever done anymore without a contract as it was when I was growing up because trust and honor doesn't exist at the level today as it did then.

Forgive me, but is it your experience that contracts have always been a part of the deal or not? Or are you simply suggesting that nobody these days even agrees to agree to anything without a contract in front of both parties to be signed? Because i would dispute that too. But then, i'm just naive.

Your response is typical of what I find in society...so many people feel compelled to question every little thing that is said as if world peace depended on them to correct it.

Personally, the problem i see with society is that people say things that aren't true and nobody feels compelled to question them. You argued that million dollar land deals used to be carried out solely on a handshake. While i'm not yet sure either way, it sounds like you admit to essentially making that up. And if that's the case...... Let me again quote you in your first post.

Your word was the only thing you had and if you lost it, you would never get it back.

Just sayin'.

Look, we obviously disagree, and i may have come across a bit heavy handed. My apologies. I shouldn't have bothered to enter this thread because frankly, the extent to which people do or don't say thank you when the door is held for them is not something i care to spend my time discussing.

[DreamWeaver69]

Originally Posted by Doove

You're right. Rhetorically speaking, $2million loans are nothing like million dollar land deals.

Forgive me, but is it your experience that contracts have always been a part of the deal or not? Or are you simply suggesting that nobody these days even agrees to agree to anything without a contract in front of both parties to be signed? Because i would dispute that too. But then, i'm just naive.

Personally, the problem i see with society is that people say things that aren't true and nobody feels compelled to question them. You argued that million dollar land deals used to be carried out solely on a handshake. While i'm not yet sure either way, it sounds like you admit to essentially making that up. And if that's the case...... Let me again quote you in your first post.

Just sayin'.

Look, we obviously disagree, and i may have come across a bit heavy handed. My apologies. I shouldn't have bothered to enter this thread because frankly, the extent to which people do or don't say thank you when the door is held for them is not something i care to spend my time discussing.

Dude, first you essentially call me a liar, then close with an apology. Not sure what basis you use to make that determination and I'm sorry you felt the need to dissect every part of my post. Obviously I wasn't clear in my post, but it wasn't my intention to say land deals were done solely on a handshake--just they were agreed to via a handshake. Once you shook on it, it was considered a done deal regardless of when the contract was signed.

But as you say, we disagree--I'm really not interested in continuing this debate with you. Quite honestly, I'm surprised my comments generated such debate. As I stated earlier, these are my experiences, whether you agree or disagree is immaterial to me.

Again, hope your day gets better!
Peace, out.

[runswithscissors]

Originally Posted by chelsea simms

ALT You are correct I am quite young, but have spent countless hours in the company of 40 to 60 plus year old guys watching their actions, manners and the way they conduct themselves. this is what I founded my comments on. and by the way as of today I,m no longer 19 I'm now 20

May I be the first to wish you a very happy birthday, Chelsea!

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by chelsea simms

WTF I will be honored for you to pay whatever you please to my boobs

I'm not sure you want to be that open-ended with WTF. He can be pretty twisted.

[Doove]

Buckmaster,

My name ain't "Dude". And you sound angry.