Great Ironies of Liberalism

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

Yes, the welfare state is part of the problem, no doubt.
However, no one can make the case that any immigrant is good for America. The immigrants that came here and worked hard probably have readily identifiable characteristics we should use to guide future immigration. Additionally, no one denies some immigrants coming in are bad for the country. We should research them as well to define who to keep out.

All white people were immigrants.

[stevepar]

j.l...
the greatest irony is you keep on posting crap and aside from the true believers no one else cares....keep up the good work....

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

All white people were immigrants.

Would you say there are good white people and bad white people?
The prisons are filled with white serial killers, drug addicts, rapists, etc - too bad their parents, grandparents, whatever were allowed to immigrate.

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by CJ7

a Jew starting a thread about letting the "poor,tired huddled masses" into the country

talk about irony ? talk about JL, the stupid son of a bitch without a brain.

An anti-Semite full of hate saying I'm the bad guy - another irony

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCap

Yes, I do think any immigrant is a good thing, but no one could make the case because you wouldn't be swayed anyhow.

The more genes in the pool the better the best are. Natural Selection is the best determining method, certainly better than any self-proclaimed experts.

The minute you stop growing and shift your focus to protecting what you have is the same minute you start to decay.

When did we stop trying to make more states? Why stop at fifty? I know we added territories, but why not Quebec or Chihuahua for the 51st state? Take some focus off the ineffective federal government bloated with misguided attempts to solve problems that belong to local municipalities.

Wow, if you represent the majority I can see why the country is so fucked up. I merely want to insure productive, law abiding immigrants come here and make a contribution, as have many in the past, but idiots like you will take the refuse of the world and plunk them down on our welfare system.

[Zhivago52]

Immigrants are needed since all too many Americans are getting by on government benefits and won't work and will vote to stay on the gravy train. Chamber of Commerce wants cheap labor and Democrats need a new voting base to get on the gravy train.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

So you think that any immigrant, no matter how poor, sick, criminal, etc is good for the country?
That's what I meant, "No one can make the case that just any immigrant (out of a million a year) who shows up is good for the country." I think we should limit it to the best 50,000 or so who apply, regardless of the race canard people throw up when it is really an economics issue.

And what standard would you use to determine the "best 50,000"? Education? Wealth?

I do a lot of cycling and as I ride around my town into areas where new homes are being built, almost all the men dong the framing and bricklaying and many other jobs in the home building trades is from Mexico. Probably little formal education. Definitely not rich. But very hard-working and honest. When I have tradesmen into my house to do work, more often than not they are foreign-born.

So what exact questions would you ask to potential immigrants into the U.S. that would ensure we get the "best 50,000"?

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by SpeedRacerXXX

And what standard would you use to determine the "best 50,000"? Education? Wealth?

I do a lot of cycling and as I ride around my town into areas where new homes are being built, almost all the men dong the framing and bricklaying and many other jobs in the home building trades is from Mexico. Probably little formal education. Definitely not rich. But very hard-working and honest. When I have tradesmen into my house to do work, more often than not they are foreign-born.

So what exact questions would you ask to potential immigrants into the U.S. that would ensure we get the "best 50,000"?

Now, that was an excellent reply.
We should use the best, non political minds to do research on the immigrants who have come to this country in the past. Study those who have succeeded, and those who have become a burden. Find the defining characteristics of success and failure, and judge the potential new arrivals by those standards. All applicants should pay a non refundable fee to cover processing costs.
Everyone who is here now would benefit by this process, even if they slipped in under the current less stringent standards, because we would be bringing in people who would benefit us, such as those workers you see, and not the slackers, criminals, and welfare bums you don't see.

[SpeedRacerXXX]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

Now, that was an excellent reply.
We should use the best, non political minds to do research on the immigrants who have come to this country in the past. Study those who have succeeded, and those who have become a burden. Find the defining characteristics of success and failure, and judge the potential new arrivals by those standards. All applicants should pay a non refundable fee to cover processing costs.
Everyone who is here now would benefit by this process, even if they slipped in under the current less stringent standards, because we would be bringing in people who would benefit us, such as those workers you see, and not the slackers, criminals, and welfare bums you don't see.

No argument from me.

My son just married (Last August) a girl from Bulgaria. She worked for H-P in Bulgaria. Took 6 months and several thousand dollars (not sure whose hands the money ended up in) to get her a visa to come to the U.S., with the understanding that they had 6 months in which to get married. Simply pointing out that getting into the U.S. is NOT easy in today's world.

As an aside, Bulgarian women are HOT! About 4-5 couples came from Bulgaria for the wedding and WOW. The couples were issued visas only because they were coming to a wedding. Long interviews were necessary before visas were issued. The U.S. is NOT an easy country to get into, even temporarily. From some countries it is harder than from other countries.

[JohnnyCap]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

Wow, if you represent the majority I can see why the country is so fucked up. I merely want to insure productive, law abiding immigrants come here and make a contribution, as have many in the past, but idiots like you will take the refuse of the world and plunk them down on our welfare system.

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

Now, that was an excellent reply.
We should use the best, non political minds to do research on the immigrants who have come to this country in the past. Study those who have succeeded, and those who have become a burden. Find the defining characteristics of success and failure, and judge the potential new arrivals by those standards. All applicants should pay a non refundable fee to cover processing costs.
Everyone who is here now would benefit by this process, even if they slipped in under the current less stringent standards, because we would be bringing in people who would benefit us, such as those workers you see, and not the slackers, criminals, and welfare bums you don't see.

Eventually as the population grows, that 50k becomes 40k. Then 30k. But it doesn't stop at zero, no, these 'best, non-political minds' stop deciding who to allow in, and start deciding who is in that is a burden. That will probably be the unhealthy and the poor, judging by your earlier ideas. And those 'best' minds (who picks the best minds?) will use their smarts to find efficient ways to eliminate the burden. Poison gas and incineration have been popular in the past, but technology can be amazing.

Or, perhaps, the nation will go bankrupt trying to keep people out while it tries to sell citizenship at an attractive enough price. If it is too expensive your 'best' people won't come, and you can't sell it at a reasonable price if fake documentation or smuggling is an attractive enough option. Might become a scenario where the joke in Europe is that you can't give U.S. citizenship away. I am not sure our product is as good as you think; the truly healthy and wealthy are doing okay in their native lands.

As far as me being an idiot of the world, I post frequently about hiring goons to enforce welfare control. I'd prefer we spend on that over anti-immigration. But like I suspected, you merely insult those that don't agree with you.

When your 'best non-political' minds have to stop accepting persons and have to start eliminating, will you prefer domestic work, or will you farm it out overseas?

[Jewish Lawyer]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCap

Eventually as the population grows, that 50k becomes 40k. Then 30k. But it doesn't stop at zero, no, these 'best, non-political minds' stop deciding who to allow in, and start deciding who is in that is a burden. That will probably be the unhealthy and the poor, judging by your earlier ideas. And those 'best' minds (who picks the best minds?) will use their smarts to find efficient ways to eliminate the burden. Poison gas and incineration have been popular in the past, but technology can be amazing.

Or, perhaps, the nation will go bankrupt trying to keep people out while it tries to sell citizenship at an attractive enough price. If it is too expensive your 'best' people won't come, and you can't sell it at a reasonable price if fake documentation or smuggling is an attractive enough option. Might become a scenario where the joke in Europe is that you can't give U.S. citizenship away. I am not sure our product is as good as you think; the truly healthy and wealthy are doing okay in their native lands.

As far as me being an idiot of the world, I post frequently about hiring goons to enforce welfare control. I'd prefer we spend on that over anti-immigration. But like I suspected, you merely insult those that don't agree with you.

When your 'best non-political' minds have to stop accepting persons and have to start eliminating, will you prefer domestic work, or will you farm it out overseas?

Won't hurt people to cut their own grass and clean their own houses.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

However, no one can make the case that any immigrant is good for America.

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

No one can make the case that just any immigrant (out of a million a year) who shows up is good for the country.

Unfortunately your first version of the post was ambiguous at best. I have no philosophical disagreement with it as you clarified in the second version.

Unfortunately the difficulty would be in deciding who does/does not get past the filter. Again, philosophically it might sound good to have an apolitical group identify the "most desirable traits", but I have no reason to believe we would ever get agreement on such a list of traits because underneath it all is the question of "Who is a valued, productive citizen?" Just read this board and there are many radically different value systems, and the value system drives the traits you would identify.

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

Would you say there are good white people and bad white people?
The prisons are filled with white serial killers, drug addicts, rapists, etc - too bad their parents, grandparents, whatever were allowed to immigrate.

And here you have the other serious obstacle to your proposal: you are not only allowing in/keeping out the person, but their subsequent generations. Do you believe it is possible to identify today who will be the great grandparent of the next Steve Jobs, or the next I M Pei, etc? Or the traits that predispose someone's grandchild to blow up a school bus? Even the most ardent believer in nature over nurture would likely find that a daunting task.

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by Jewish Lawyer

Would you say there are good white people and bad white people?
The prisons are filled with white serial killers, drug addicts, rapists, etc - too bad their parents, grandparents, whatever were allowed to immigrate.

Sorry Jewish laundry nothing in my comment had anything with good or bad. Shame yours did though. Of course you aren't white are you?

[JD Barleycorn]

Originally Posted by JohnnyCap

Eventually as the population grows, that 50k becomes 40k. Then 30k. But it doesn't stop at zero, no, these 'best, non-political minds' stop deciding who to allow in, and start deciding who is in that is a burden. That will probably be the unhealthy and the poor, judging by your earlier ideas. And those 'best' minds (who picks the best minds?) will use their smarts to find efficient ways to eliminate the burden. Poison gas and incineration have been popular in the past, but technology can be amazing.

Or, perhaps, the nation will go bankrupt trying to keep people out while it tries to sell citizenship at an attractive enough price. If it is too expensive your 'best' people won't come, and you can't sell it at a reasonable price if fake documentation or smuggling is an attractive enough option. Might become a scenario where the joke in Europe is that you can't give U.S. citizenship away. I am not sure our product is as good as you think; the truly healthy and wealthy are doing okay in their native lands.

As far as me being an idiot of the world, I post frequently about hiring goons to enforce welfare control. I'd prefer we spend on that over anti-immigration. But like I suspected, you merely insult those that don't agree with you.

When your 'best non-political' minds have to stop accepting persons and have to start eliminating, will you prefer domestic work, or will you farm it out overseas?

Do you know what you just tried to say and how wrong, and disgusting, you are? Why are you trying to equate the holocaust with immigration? The Germans killed their own people who were Jewish, Gay, and Communist while at the same time encouraging women to have Arayan babies. What does that have to do with this topic?

[JohnnyCap]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Do you know what you just tried to say and how wrong, and disgusting, you are? Why are you trying to equate the holocaust with immigration? The Germans killed their own people who were Jewish, Gay, and Communist while at the same time encouraging women to have Arayan babies. What does that have to do with this topic?

I disagree, and find the opposing ideas more offensive, but yes, I am willing to suggest disgusting ideas to try and demonstrate that creating panels with the objective of deciding which persons have the right to be allowed into society is setting a dangerous precedent and creating a force that may spin out of control.

I referred to an extreme example of population management to illustrate my point. I was able to present my suggestion without calling you or JL an idiot, crap, or disgusting.