So France is Heading Back Left

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

The most horrific aspect of the recent French election is that the public will be seeing less of Carla Sarkozy.

It's a shame to lose her, but we've still got Michelle.








OK, the last one is actually a Klingon, but you have to admit the resemblance is striking.

[Seedy]

LMMFAO... I don't care who you are that is some funny shit.....

[Whirlaway]

How Europe’s crisis resolves itself as yet remains unknown.

But with Sunday’s returns from France and Greece, the mega-trends on the Old Continent are unmistakable. And for the European Union, they are ominous.

Nationalism –be it economic nationalism or ethnic nationalism –is ascendant. Transnationalism and multiculturalism are in headlong if not irreversible retreat. The European project is itself imperiled.

To be sure, no one should underestimate the commitment of Europe’s elites to the vision of One Europe as challenger to the United States. In the capitals and corporate headquarters of the continent, these elites are, almost to a man and woman, devout Europeans.

Yet their ability to keep Europe on course until its peoples have yielded up their sovereignty and agreed to submerge themselves in a single entity is now in question. From Paris to Athens, the radical left and the nationalist right are resurgent. Marxists and patriots dream different dreams than the disciples of Jean Monnet.

Consider what the French electorate just said.

In the first round of voting, communists and radicals took 11 percent. Their leader, Jean-Luc Melenchon,endorsed the socialist Francois Hollande, who went on to win Sunday.

President Nicolas Sarkozy, who ran second in the first round with only 27 percent, raised his total Sunday to 48 percent. Though Marine Le Pen of the National Front had refused to endorse him, Sarkozy openly courted her voters.

As Marine put it, they call us racists, protectionists and xenophobes. Then they come asking for our endorsement, echo our words and seek our votes.

The near 30 percent the National Front and far left combined pulled in the first round is unprecedented in the annals of the Fifth Republic.

In Greece, the returns were equally dramatic.

PASOK, the governing center-left party, ran third with 13 percent of the vote. New Democracy, the center-right party that is in coalition with PASOK, ran first but won only 19 percent.

These two parties saw their combined support sliced in half since the last election and may be unable to form a government that can continue to impose the austerity the German-led eurozone is demanding as the price of Greece’s bailout.

The parties that gained most were the communists with 7 percent, Syriza, a radical-left party, with 17 percent, and Golden Dawn, a far-right party that has called for land mines on the border, with 7 percent. All three will bedevil any coalition that accedes to German demands.

What is causing the collapse of the center in Europe?The austerity being imposed by Germany and her hard-money allies in the north of Europe on the indebted nations of the south of Europe.

Across the continent, voices are rising to demand that a growth package be attached to Angela Merkel’s fiscal pact.

But a growth package means tax cuts and spending increases. How do Europe’s nations provide these without adding to deficits and national debts, which mean new borrowing and the higher interest rates that are a primary cause of the present crisis?

The debtor nations seem to be saying this:

“Yes, we have been addicted to the narcotic of deficit spending. But we cannot survive going cold turkey. If you force us into it, our people will rebel and throw us out. Before we can give up the drugs, we need a new fix.”

From inception,the European project was built on a Faustian bargain.

If the nations of Europe would surrender their sovereignty, let their identities be diluted through immigration and open borders, and submerge themselves in a larger and more inclusive Europe, their peoples would be rewarded with an unparalleled prosperity.

Surrender your souls, and we will make you rich, secure and happy, said the eurocrats to the peoples of Europe.

After two terrible wars, Europe’s peoples took the bribe.

Free-riding off America’s defense, enjoying a prosperity produced by internal free trade and the explosive growth of their welfare states, financed at low interest rates once the euro was accepted as the common currency, they came to relish the good times.

Now the bill has come due. Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain must sacrifice and suffer to pay for these good times. Their public sectors must be pared back, pensions reduced, retirement age advanced. They must work harder and longer for all the years it takes to put their fiscal houses in order and pay back what they owe.

The left is saying: We want our pensions restored, our public employees rehired. If our leaders need more money, take it from the rich, take it from the banks, take it from the big corporations.

The right is saying: We want our countries and culture back. We want our borders closed. We want no more immigration from the rest or Europe or the rest of the world.

Let France be France again. Let Greece be Greece again.

Tribalism, radicalism and socialism are the growth stocks of the new Europe.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

Free-riding off America’s defense, enjoying a prosperity produced by internal free trade and the explosive growth of their welfare states, financed at low interest rates once the euro was accepted as the common currency, they came to relish the good times.

Now the bill has come due. Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain must sacrifice and suffer to pay for these good times. Their public sectors must be pared back, pensions reduced, retirement age advanced. They must work harder and longer for all the years it takes to put their fiscal houses in order and pay back what they owe.

The left is saying: We want our pensions restored, our public employees rehired. If our leaders need more money, take it from the rich, take it from the banks, take it from the big corporations.

The right is saying: We want our countries and culture back. We want our borders closed. We want no more immigration from the rest or Europe or the rest of the world.

Let France be France again. Let Greece be Greece again.

Tribalism, radicalism and socialism are the growth stocks of the new Europe.

As usual Pat is spot on. Our folks on the right and left will not quit spending though. The right on Defense and the left on Social programs.

[Whirlaway]

There are plenty of us on the right who are willing to cut defense; but to pay down debt; not fund a bigger more entitlement government! Which is what the Democrats always want with defense savings.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

There are plenty of us on the right who are willing to cut defense; but to pay down debt; not fund a bigger more entitlement government! Which is what the Democrats always want with defense savings.

You need to tell more of your cohorts!

You do understand that the SS surplus has funded the overspending by the DOD. Once I figured that out, I am 100% for private accounts. Only way we can curb both Defense spensing and SS spending.

[Whirlaway]

The SS surplus has funded alot of big government, not just the DOD exclusively !

It still remains that the Democrats don't want to cut spending to pay down the debt. They want to cut DOD spending to fund their Progressive nanny state.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

The SS surplus has funded alot of big government, not just the DOD exclusively !

It still remains that the Democrats don't want to cut spending to pay down the debt. They want to cut DOD spending to fund their Progressive nanny state.

There are as many fools on the left as there are the right.

The fact of the matter is that SS has funded itself, Defense has not. Why should the left want to cut something that they have already funded?

[Randy4Candy]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

The SS surplus has funded alot of big government, not just the DOD exclusively !

It still remains that the Democrats don't want to cut spending to pay down the debt. They want to cut DOD spending to fund their Progressive nanny state.

Whirley, you ignorant slut...

So SS funding things other than the DOD makes overfunding Cheney's wars OK? Gotta love that little bit of sound, game changing reasoning

The Dems ought to wait and have Mitt the Twitt and the TPunk Kongrass be the ones to do the cutting. Of course, if those nutless wonders replace Obama and add to their numbers in Kongrass the won't do it. The Dems need to figure out that every time they get elected they have to fix some Republican fu*k up while listening to all the background noise from the roots of the problem.

[Texas Contrarian]

It's interesting to see that someone started a thread on the recent French election, since the potential collapse of the "European experiment" is one of the most topical issues of the day.

You can hardly look around for more than a few minutes without seeing a piece by someone like Krugman or Stiglitz claiming that Britain and other countries are about to go back into a depression due to looming "austerity." Just look at the UK. No one has cut anything. The growth rate of government spending has been trimmed back in certain areas, but that's about it. Statements that its economy has been, or will be, subjected to draconian levels of "austerity" are simply ridiculous. In fact, the UK has attempted to deal with its fiscal deficits by imposing a VAT rate increase and a rate increase from 40% to 50% on high incomes. It's now clear that the latter is failing to raise anywhere near the revenue projected by static analysts, who never seem to learn anything about how tax policy works in the real world. A recent report from the office of the UK's Chancellor of the Exchequer said that many business owners and other high-income Britons are "maneuvering" to reduce their tax liabilities in view of the new higher rate. (What a surprise!)

The UK recently decided to back off from the 50% rate, choosing to try out a 45% rate instead.

Now Hollande is promising to raise the French income tax rate (already very high at 45%) all the way to 75%. Supposedly that will finance all the spending initiatives he has in mind. (Not a chance.)

Someone needs to pare back the French state, not fatten it up even more. Government spending is already 56% of GDP. What do these clowns want to do, take it all the way to 60%?

The French should learn a lesson from Anders Borg, who recently put Sweden on a path to fiscal sustainability by trimming back the state and cutting taxes. Of course, Sweden is still one of the world's most liberal social democracies, but public policy is headed in the right direction and its economy is acting as though it's being nursed back to better health.

The French also have to deal with the fiscal pact they made with the Germans, who actually take fiscal discipline seriously. France now has a public debt of about 90% of GDP, roughly 20% worse than ours (which is bad enough). Current French budget deficits are in the 8% range, which of course is completely unacceptable.

Those of you who have been around for a while remember the Mitterrand government's promises from the early '80s. He, of course, was France's last openly socialist president. It didn't take long for the bond markets to inject a dose of reality and force Mitterrand to drop plans for nationalizing large swaths of industry, as well as forget about all the other expensive ideas he had earlier proposed.

I think the same will be the case with Hollande. Many analysts think he is a pragmatist who will govern in a way not significantly different from Sarkozy, who, it must be remembered, did little or nothing to roll back government growth.

Perhaps an even bigger question is how all this will effect the euro. The Germans have just about had it with the Greeks, and there may still be some lingering fears about the French. Of course, several other eurozone countries are basketcases as well.

The European currency union has to put up with a whole bunch of incompetent, unworkable governments.

Perhaps we ought to consider ourselves fortunate that we only have to put up with one!

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by IIFFOFRDB

75 % income tax on the rich. Thats going to work out real good for them FROGS.

It didn't work too badly here. Our top rate was 80% for years and years. From 1941 to 1963 it was over 80%. From 1964 to 1981 it was 70% or more. And from 1982 - 1986 it was 50%. But 1941 to 1963 were very prosperous years for the U.S. and especially prosperous for the middle class.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfa....cfm?Docid=213

Incidentally, I've spent about six weeks in France this year and the public is quite happy there. Their economy is generally doing fairly well. GDP grew about 2% last year, but Sarko's too quick return to austerity measures after their stimulus program cut growth to about 0.5 in Q4/2011 and 0% in Q1/2012. They're doing better than the UK, where austerity under the Torries has had even more devastating effects. But a move to a right leaning moderate like Hollande is to be expected and I anticipate will lead to good things.

As for Carla, the people have mixed feelings about seeing her go. Her public standing has fallen in the last year or so. Oddly, having Sarko's baby hurt her popularity. One acquaintance I talked to said he thought it was because it ended male fantasies that she would, if given the chance, fuck them.

[TexTushHog]

BTW, there is an interesting and well designed recent study on The effect of taxation on income that finds the elasticity of taxable income to be 0.19. Therefore the income optimizing tax rate -- the peak of conservatives beloved (and aptly named Laffer curve) -- is 84%. So 80% is not far off as past US experience has shown.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w17860

http://baselinescenario.com/2012/02/...-taxes-matter/

[Guest123018-4]

During the time of those high socialist tax rates there were so many deductions that nobody paid anywhere near that rate. Now there are almost no deductions that remain once you hit the highest bracket.
The end result of lowering the tax rate and eliminating deductions was to increase revenue to the federal government. Had the spending held at the same levels we would not owe anyone a dime and would still have surpluses.

The problem is not taxes but spending.

[i'va biggen]

A shot of lightning on your first trip after election,will put you on the straight and narrow.LOL

[4karlos]

France just got a new dog with a different collar.
France has always been left....far more left than what you will ever see here. Even the French extreme right wing is located to the left of any democrat in D.C.