Bump Stocks Legal gain . . .till They are Not.

[Unique_Carpenter]

Originally Posted by ICU 812

Watch out for more rulings from SCOTUS on regulatory overarch for OSHAS and EPA among other agencies.

Looking back there's quite a few of these.
One of the huge issues is who has the bankroll to afford the legal costs to push a case through a few appeals and then have to go to the supremes.

Note also that recently, emergency appeals direct to the supremes have been rejected with instructions to run the cases through the normal appeals process.

[ICU 812]

MMany of the firearms related cases are funded by the Gun Owners of America organization.

Two guys who tried to raise funds through GoFundMe wound up jailed with serious charges for making and selling machine guns. The government managed to confiscate or make unavailable these funds because one the guys did not manage them properly. Many feel that their cased would be overturned on appeal.

he ATF Case:
https://www.atf.gov/news/press-relea...n-transferring

A rebuttle Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGyznhLFHb4of the parties didn't manage them properly.

A video case review with examples of the "machineguns" that got them jailed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGyznhLFHb4

My opinion: No reasonable person would consider the so-called “Auto Key Card” to be a machinegun, or a gun of any sort.

[biomed1]

Originally Posted by ICU 812

MMany of the firearms related cases are funded by the Gun Owners of America organization.

Two guys who tried to raise funds through GoFundMe wound up jailed with serious charges for making and selling machine guns. The government managed to confiscate or make unavailable these funds because one the guys did not manage them properly. Many feel that their cased would be overturned on appeal.

he ATF Case:
https://www.atf.gov/news/press-releases/youtuber-and-auto-key-car
d-manufacturer-sentenced-five-years-prison-transferring

A rebuttle Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGyznhLFHb4of the parties didn't manage them properly.

A video case review with examples of the "machineguns" that got them jailed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGyznhLFHb4

My opinion: No reasonable person would consider the so-called “Auto Key Card” to be a machinegun, or a gun of any sort.

You are correct that the Auto Key Card is not a Gun, let alone a Machine Gun.

However it is an unregistered accessory that will turn a Semi-Automatic Firearm in to a Full Automatic Firearm.

Please and read the Press Release from the ATF, Dated September 8, 2023

For the record, In my past, my job required the use of Select Fire and Automatic Weapons.

I do not personally see the "need" for individuals to possess a Select Fire or Automatic Weapon.

That being said, the Laws permit individuals to own/possess Select Fire or Automatic Weapons.

They must follow the ATF Guidelines and successfully complete the Process.

Once done, they can legally purchase/own/possess a Class III NFA Firearm or Conversion Accessory.

To directly address your post above . . .

https://www.atf.gov/news/press-relea...n-transferring

Department of Justice U.S. Attorney's Office
Middle District of Florida

Roger B. Handberg, United States Attorney
www.justice.gov/usao-mdfl
For Immediate Release
Friday, September 8, 2023


YouTuber and Auto Key Card Manufacturer Sentenced to Five Years in Prison for Transferring Unregistered Machinegun Conversion Devices

Jacksonville, Florida – U.S. District Judge Marcia Morales Howard has sentenced Kristopher Justinboyer Ervin (43, Orange Park) to five years and eight months in federal prison and Matthew Raymond Hoover (39, Wisconsin) to five years in federal prison for conspiring to transfer and transferring unregistered machinegun conversion devices. Ervin additionally was sentenced for structuring cash withdrawals from his bank account consisting of proceeds of the sale of the devices. The court also ordered Ervin to forfeit $68,000, representing the amount of funds involved in the structuring offense. Ervin and Hoover were found guilty by a federal jury on April 21, 2023.
According to court documents, in January 2021, Ervin’s bank contacted the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) to report that employees believed that Ervin was trafficking in machinegun conversion devices. Subsequent investigation revealed that Ervin was running an online business selling machinegun conversion devices, known as lightning links, etched into metal cards, which he referred to as Auto Key Cards. Ervin described the Auto Key Card as a “pen holder,” a “novelty,” and a “political sculpture.”
In February 2021, federal agents from ATF and the U.S. Postal Inspection Service (USPIS) surveilled Ervin and observed him dropping off dozens of packages at an Orange Park post office, each of which was determined to contain unregistered machinegun conversion devices. A lightning link can be dropped into an otherwise legal AR-15 type firearm and convert it into a fully automatic machinegun.
ATF examined the Auto Key Cards, and a firearms enforcement officer was able to remove the pieces of a lightning link from an Auto Key Card using a common Dremel rotary tool in about 40 minutes. When the firearms enforcement officer placed the two pieces of the lightning link into an AR-15 type firearm, it converted the semi-automatic firearm to be fully automatic – that is, a machinegun.
Hoover operated a YouTube channel called CRS Firearms on which he advertised Auto Key Cards. Hoover stated that his viewers could cut a lightning link out of the Auto Key Card, “drop it in your receiver, scratch your full auto itch, throw it away when you’re done” and “no one’s the wiser.”
Hoover’s videos advertising the Auto Key Card led to a substantial increase in Ervin’s sales. Ervin sold more than 2,000 Auto Key Cards in only a few months. Multiple purchasers of the Auto Key Card testified at trial that they had learned about it from Hoover’s videos and purchased the Auto Key Card intending to use it to convert their AR-15 type weapons into machineguns. Ervin compensated Hoover for his advertisements by sending cash through the mail and, on one occasion, a Louis Vuitton purse.
In March 2021, federal agents executed a search warrant at Ervin’s home and recovered Auto Key Cards containing etchings for more than 1,500 lightning links. In total, the evidence showed that the conspiracy involved at least 6,600 individual lightning links.
This case was investigated by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, and the Internal Revenue Service – Criminal Investigation. It was prosecuted by Assistant United States Attorneys Laura Cofer Taylor and David B. Mesrobian. The asset forfeiture is being handled by Assistant United States Attorney Mai Tran.
“Investigating this case required dedication and tenacity on behalf of ATF’s Jacksonville Field Office and our partner agencies on this matter—the U.S. Postal Inspection Service, Internal Revenue Service and the U.S. Attorney’s Office,” said ATF Tampa Field Division Special Agent in Charge Kirk Howard, whose agency led the investigation. “Our work was necessary to prove the true nature of the Auto Key Cards being sold by Ervin and Hoover and disrupt their audacious scheme to circumvent federal firearms laws.”
This case is part of Project Safe Neighborhoods (PSN), a program bringing together all levels of law enforcement and the communities they serve to reduce violent crime and gun violence, and to make our neighborhoods safer for everyone. On May 26, 2021, the Department launched a violent crime reduction strategy strengthening PSN based on these core principles: fostering trust and legitimacy in our communities, supporting community-based organizations that help prevent violence from occurring in the first place, setting focused and strategic enforcement priorities, and measuring the results.
Anyone in possession of an Auto Key Card should contact his or her nearest ATF office or call 1-800-ATF-GUNS and make arrangements to surrender the device to ATF so that it can be destroyed.
###


Tampa Field Division

Members should once again return to the Original Topic - Bump Stocks Are Legal Again

[ICU 812]

I do not advocate for or endorse the use of so-called "lightning link", which is the name of the device depicted on the "Auto Key Card".

However, it is my belief that a 1st Amendment case can be made that the Auto Key Card merely shows a picture of what such a device might look like. That the FBI expe3rts could not create a functioning device when trimming the metal to the outlines etched into the card is an indication that the picture is not to scale or is not dimensionally correct. It is just a notional picture of what a Lightning Link might lok like. I think there is a larger constitutional issue here than what c is considered to be a machinegun.

[ICU 812]

biomed1: I thank you for your service. Furthermore, I respect your experience and expertise.

Tp return to the topic: There are those who feel that federal regulatory agencies have overstepped the written statute laws in publishing and enforcing new rules. The BATFE is not alone in this. There are pending cases involving OSHA,EPA, FDA and others.
The issue is larger than the BATFE and prohibited devices.

Merely publishing and distributing a picture of a prohibited article cannot be deemed to be the creation of that device. Would the same prosecution be brought against someone who sold a gummed label with the same outline on it?

One might usefully make that argument for a digital file for creating that device with a cnc mill or a 3D printer. . . .but not for the technical engineering drawing of that device and certainty not for a dimensionally incorrect line drawing. That this trial went forward to conviction is a lrgal miscarriage in my viwe. . .. despite the advertising and claims of the accused as to purpose, efficacy or suitability.

[Diligaf]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

Bump Stocks are not an infringement of the Second Amendment. It's an after market accessory and a crappy one at that. Since it isn't a permanent modification the firearm isn't considered to be fully automatic.

Great! So I guess you'll have no issues with regulating ammunition. It's not part of the firearm, right?

[Diligaf]

Originally Posted by Why_Yes_I_Do

I don't think so, unless you have the EO number to share with us. My recollection was that he advocated for it heavily, but also knew that Congress should have updated the law.

“President Donald Trump is a law and order president, who has signed into law millions of dollars in funding for law enforcement officers in our schools, and under his strong leadership, the Department of Justice has prosecuted more gun criminals than ever before as we target violent criminals. We are faithfully following President Trump’s leadership by making clear that bump stocks, which turn semiautomatics into machine guns, are illegal, and we will continue to take illegal guns off of our streets.”

On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.” In response to that direction the Department reviewed more than 186,000 public comments and made the decision to make clear that the term “machinegun” as used in the National Firearms Act (NFA), as amended, and Gun Control Act (GCA), as amended, includes all bump-stock-type devices that harness recoil energy to facilitate the continuous operation of a semiautomatic firearm after a single pull of the trigger.

Better question may be whether you plan to vote for Trump, since he stood up to the NRA and those deranged, legal, gun owners?

Interesting that you think that's a better question. I imagine being a single issue voter you assume everyone else is too. There's many reasons I'd vote for a wet pile of dogshit over trump.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Diligaf

Great! So I guess you'll have no issues with regulating ammunition. It's not part of the firearm, right?

It may not be a physical part of the Firearm but Ammo is an essential component. A bump Stock isn't, got it.

[Diligaf]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

It may not be a physical part of the Firearm but Ammo is an essential component. A bump Stock isn't, got it.

That's an opinion of yours, and not an essential component of the conversation. Got it.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Diligaf

That's an opinion of yours, and not an essential component of the conversation. Got it.

Nope it's a fact.

[Diligaf]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

Nope it's a fact.

Nope. It's an opinion.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by Diligaf

Nope. It's an opinion.

That's your opinion, lol.

[ICU 812]

Maybe they could regulate ammo into extinction.

The BATFE has, so far, been able to regulate the mere dimensionally inaccurate picturing of a lightning link has though it is a functioning machinegun., So it might not be too farfetched to imagine that they would attempt regulate the ammunition in some way.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by ICU 812

Maybe they could regulate ammo into extinction.

The BATFE has, so far, been able to regulate the mere dimensionally inaccurate picturing of a lightning link has though it is a functioning machinegun., So it might not be too farfetched to imagine that they would attempt regulate the ammunition in some way.

Regulate Ammo, just what would that entail? Maybe put a ridiculous tax on it or maybe restricting the amount one can purchase.Regardless of whatever tactics are used a Firearm void of ammo isn't much use to the user. Bump Stocks however are just accessories whether they are banned or not doesn't really matter.

[biomed1]

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