It Works Soooo Well in Britain

[Iaintliein]

Originally Posted by Little Stevie

I have only partial agreement with that (you missed way too many points). What YOU fail to realize is that the alternatives are unsustainable AND cost MORE. I really prefer a single-payer system that removes the profit motive from withholding either coverage or care using an economic model based on "for profit" health care.

There is no way to "remove the profit motive" from any human interaction. The only thing that can be done is limit the number of parties in the transaction, thereby containing the cost.

The government doesn't report "profit" it just pushes the money is "saves" by withholding services into the department's budget for hiring more bureaucrats, buying more furniture etc., the only practical difference is that the government doesn't even pretend to pay income taxes and can't be sued.

The ONLY way to make healthcare more affordable for more people is to outlaw ALL insurance and get government out of the picture. Here's a snapshot of the fee schedule that shows how much more it costs to administer "insurance" and no one with a quarter of a brain can think that administering "government insurance" costs less.

http://goldwaterinstitute.org/blog/m...ives-cost-care

[CuteOldGuy]

Stevie, I've already said I would support a single payer system on two conditions: 1. There is a constitutional amendment approving the system, and 2. There is no government input into health decisions.

As it stands now, who will be doing the EOL counseling? Most likely, it will be administered by the IRS. Do you really want them making end of life recommendations for you or your family? Really?

[essence]

I am coming late to this 'debate' but maybe have the right to add a few comments?

- don't believe what any newspaper says, particularly the daily mail, particularly headlines.

- you will struggle to find anybody in any country which has a state health system lobbying for anything else. It would be political suicide. Everybody knows somebody who has been very well treated on NHS.

- is NHS perfect? Of course not, every new government tries to reorganise and improve it.

- is care of the elderly in the UK perfect? No, of course not, and there have been recent examples where it has fallen well short of what a humane society should provide. Abuse of elderly by nurses etc.

- are 130,000 elderly being murdered or killed by euthenasia? Of course not, read the article. 130,000 are deemed too ill to survive and death is imminent. They are put on LCP. Most would consider this compassionate, nobody who has an elderly relative ready for death wants to prolong that death unnecessarily.

- are some of the 130,000 put on LCP when they shouldn't be? Of course, the numbers themselves mean the likelihood of a single mistake is high. But what do we have? A few anecdotes, no figures.

- at the end of the day, if the NHS is not perfect, does this mean that the alternatives are going to be perfect? Does this mean that everybody in the US dies a peaceful death with their loved ones around the bed and the best medicine on offer whatever the cost and the family decide what is best?

- give me a break.

- how stupid do you have to be to read the daily mail or use this as an example to support the status quo?

- some of you guys really need to learn how to read and discriminate.

- where is that UK doctor in Oklahoma when he is needed? I think y'all scared him away. Hie will tell you what the difference between the two systems is really like.

- thank God I've got my Houston gf on medical insurance now, even though it costs me a bit. It cost me more when she was not on it.

- I do not support any system which significantly decreases the funding available for the primary source of care. Same with charitable donations etc. So, if this means that funding via insurance is an inefficient use of money, change it. Likewise there has been lots of debate in the UK about the costs of hospital 'managers' v. cost of doctors and nurses. Also, drug firms of course do lots of lobbying of their latest and best creations.

[Iaintliein]

More importantly.

How stupid do you have to be to chase Europe down the socialist toilet? We gave up being "Subjects" beholden to government for all our needs some time ago.

[essence]

Wiff waff.

Say something useful.

No glib one liners here.

Leave them to the idiot voters.

So you don;t need a police force

So you don;t need a fire service

So you don;t need education

So you don;t need car licenses and regulations

So you don;t need building or planning regulations

So you don;t need food hygene regulations

So anybody can drill anywhere at any time

So you don;t need laws about house ownership and rights and title

So you don;t need clean water and sewage

So you don;t need a national defense

So you don;t need border control

So you don;t need goddam socialists telling you how to live.

[IIFFOFRDB]

I should trust the democratic party that promotes abortion to not kill me when I'm a old person. The IRS has my back...OK...FUCK YOU, koolaid drinking mother fuckers..

[essence]

So what is wrong with allowing the medical experts formulate the policies? They have the greatest experience and knowledge.

God forbid if some new health minister and his civil servants who have never stepped inside a hospital try to dictate health policy.

Same problem with accountants in an insurance tower.

[mastermind238]

Essence, here are a few relevant sentences from the article:

He said: ‘The lack of evidence for initiating the Liverpool Care Pathway makes it an assisted death pathway rather than a care pathway.

‘Very likely many elderly patients who could live substantially longer are being killed by the LCP.

‘Patients are frequently put on the pathway without a proper analysis of their condition.

‘Predicting death in a time frame of three to four days, or even at any other specific time, is not possible scientifically.

This determination in the LCP leads to a self-fulfilling prophecy. The personal views of the physician or other medical team members of perceived quality of life or low likelihood of a good outcome are probably central in putting a patient on the LCP.’

Since there are about 130,000 patients in LCP, that's how many could potentially be victims of euthanasia.

You're right. "Very likely many" leaves lots of wiggle room. So maybe only 1% of those LCP patients were put there when adequate (and not necessarily heroic) care could have saved them. That's 1,300 human beings. Maybe it's only 0.1%. That's still 130 human beings being allowed to die because the state decides they're not worth saving.

To the extent that British NHS will serve as model for Obamacare when it's fully implemented, I think it's fair to be horrified.

[essence]

Mastermind, you are retracting your previous views very fast, and have now nearly got into a more sensible position.

You say there may be 130 humans who die too early in the UK because doctors (NOT the state, the state is not involved) decides they are not worth saving (No, the doctors make mistakes and may have misdiagnosed, or not done a sufficient diagnosis, they are not saying they are not worth saving).

You do not say anything about how many days/hours of life they have lost because of this misdiagnosis.

My question to you is simple. Do more or less than 130 old people die too early because of inadequate health care in the US each year (or proportionately in terms of population).

I think you know the answer.

So what is your point about the comparative health systems?

Let me tell you a story. A women's team of American football travel by coach from Houston to New Orleans for a match. On leaving the stadium, they are hit by a car. Two girls suffer concussion. They go to hospital. It turns out the team has no insurance. So the hospital quickly decides 'you'll be OK' and they are sent away, for a long trip back to Houston.

I know you will say 'they should be responsible and have insurance' but the real world is not like that.

I don't know the answer, but don't tell me it isn't broken.

Also don't tell me it is none of my business, I have had to pay for various US girls' medical expenses, which pisses me off as it is out of post tax income, and a lot of that tax has gone towards UK medical care.

An example, in a small way, of Europe subsidising the US.

[essence]

ps. from what little I know, the UK NHS is a very long way from being a model for Obamocare.

It may indeed be that many of you would prefer a non state controlled NHS funded through taxes to a state controlled insurance based Obamocare.

[the NHS has overall funding controlled by the state through taxes, and building of new hospitals etc., but operational decisions are made by doctors].

[essence]

In short, the debate on relative merits and the best scheme for the 21st century are complex. My objection is simply to the lies, distortions, and scare mongering by the right wingers.

A google on national health service and obama will bring up various useful articles from more reputable journalists.

A lot of the myths about the NHS come from the 1980's and 1990's. Waiting lists have reduced dramatically since then.

[CuteOldGuy]

All right, Essence. You may have actually posted some useful information. I don't know it it was by accident or intentional, so giving you the benefit of the doubt, I have a serious question.

Where can a person learn the real facts about the NHS? If it is true that the doctors, rather than bureaucrats make the medical decisions, that would satisfy one of my criteria for supporting a single payer system in the US. (The other is a constitutional amendment providing for the system.) I'd like to learn more how it works in practice.

The Daily Mail can't be trusted. Ok, we have FOX News and MSNBC, so that's fair. What source can be trusted? Sorry, that's two questions. But I'm serious, I'd like to know.

[cptjohnstone]

I want to die after reading little steve's post, not knowing how stupid people can be

[CuteOldGuy]

Geez, Cap'n. Stevie has been a LOT stupider than that. But once in a while, like when Venus transits the sun, he gets one right. Hell, others on here don't get anything right even that often.

Just make sure you're not holding anything sharp when you see that Stevie has posted something. Voice of experience.

[gnadfly]

Stevie, thanks for warning me about your moronic post (MORON ALERT) so I didn't waste my time reading it. Now don't be so stingy and help a brotha with your stash.