Herman Cain's 999 Plan Raises Taxes on 84% of Americans

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by budman33

To think that corporations will rapidly cut prices based on this 'embedded tax' in a Cain system is foolish. they will post record profits instead... Kinda like most of them are doing now.

you're being foolish.

this has happened before. Consider the deregulation of the airline industry.

when the regulated airlines were deregulated in the late 70's, expensive air fare prices went down considerably within one year of passage of the Airline Deregulation Act.

It only takes one company to start a price war in order to attract new customers.

the same thing will happen with the embeded taxes in many goods, it won't happen over night, but it probably will take at least 6 months to 1 year to see prices drop considerably. It takes one to start the ball rolling.

[dilbert firestorm]

THH, alot fo the poor don't pay taxes if they're on food stamps.

[CuteOldGuy]

It is amazing how much people know without even doing the research. What vested interest do you all have in the current tax code? It's like the Stockholm Syndrome. Wake up! They are NOT YOUR FRIENDS!!

[TexTushHog]

We all have a vested interest in social justice. That is the primary lesson of the French Revolution. And no economy can thrive with a thin layer of very rich, a hollow middle class, and huge swaths of downwardly mobile working poor. And that is what we are becoming.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

I still say that the best way to fix our tax system is to simply take away ALL deductions, you pay what ever bracket you fall into, and treat all income the same.

I'm finding it harder by the day to disagree with this. Given that the tax rate itself is but one small determinant on how much someone pays, it borders on the impossible to discuss who should pay what when there is no set definition of who pays what.

Unfortunately, some (if not many) of the loopholes are designed to help the economy, so i'm not sure if the answer is quite so easy.

[waverunner234]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

I still say that the best way to fix our tax system is to simply take away ALL deductions, you pay what ever bracket you fall into, and treat all income the same. And the best way to fix Social Security is to simply mandate that EVERYBODY contributes, and there would be no cap as there is now.

The more you write, the more I think you have lost all common sense.

No cap on Social Security? You forgot that there is a relationship from what you pay in to what you get out of this system? So if there is no cap, should someone who paid in millions per year, get a $100,000 SS check every 2 weeks?

And no deductions at all? Don't you feel alone on that footing where you are the sole 1 business man in the USA who doesn't have any deductions on Income Tax? Even with no mortgage you must pay property tax, add a little bit for charities and voila, there is your deduction. Getting older must bring some medical costs that are deductible, but not for you?

If I combine what you write in different threads you become really unbelievable.
A business man with a top 2% income, no tax deductions, not having a credit or debit card in the last 10 years, come on man, get real!!

[Doove]

Originally Posted by waverunner234

And no deductions at all? Don't you feel alone on that footing where you are the sole 1 business man in the USA who doesn't have any deductions on Income Tax?

If i were to phrase Jackie's idea for him, i would simply ask this question. What's more unfair, someone earning $30,000 paying 10% of his income in taxes while someone making $2.5M is paying 35% of his income in taxes, or someone making $2.5M paying $300,000 in federal income taxes while another guy making $2.5M only pays $190,000 in federal income taxes?

I could see an argument where the latter is actually more unfair.

[Gift Giver]

Its time to stop rewarding people for shitting out kids. No more deductions. And whether youre democrat or republican or whatever, taxes do need to be raised. The chimpanzee in chief said it himself "we will have to make some unpopular decisions". We cant have our cake and eat it too. You cant hug every cat either.

We're up to our asses in debt. And people want us to take in more third world illegal alien leeches? Money doesnt grow on trees you know.

[Coupe]

I haven't had much time to follow the campaigns so I am not that familiar with Cains 9-9-9. However, all the other candidates have jumped on him about it but have yet to offer anything else. I remember when politicians each laid out a "platform" and we could chose who we liked based on that. Now they all just tell us what the other candidates are not going to do.

At least he's got a set to lay something out there.

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by waverunner234

No cap on Social Security? You forgot that there is a relationship from what you pay in to what you get out of this system? So if there is no cap, should someone who paid in millions per year, get a $100,000 SS check every 2 weeks?

No, you can eliminate the cap on wages (or other income) subject to SS Taxes and still keep the current limits on benefits. Why should a person of great means receive a huge amount from Social Security? It's designed to be a stop gap program that provides a basic minimum floor of guaranteed payments for life, not a forced savings plan that guarantees you payments based on what you paid in. The money we are paying in, goes to our parents or grandparents retirement checks, not to our own retirement.

Indeed, I think that you can make an excellent argument that those like me who will retire with very substantial assets and income shouldn't draw any Social Security benefits (although Medicare is a different story). Unless my circumstances change dramatically, I should have a comfortable mid six-figure income throughout my retirement years. If Social Security is facing a temporary demographic crunch (and it is), why not means test the benefits. There are tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) who don't really need the income. I'd set the cut off fairly high, but if you're truly wealthy, and we're having trouble meeting our obligation to those less fortunate, why shouldn't those in my position be the first called upon to sacrifice?

"That to whom much is given, much is asked."

Originally Posted by Gift Giver

We're up to our asses in debt. And people want us to take in more third world illegal alien leeches? Money doesnt [sic] grow on trees you know.

You do know, of course, that the evidence shows that undocumented workers contribute more to the economy than they take away, right?

This report, by the Republican Comptroller of Texas, found the following:

The Comptroller’s office estimates the absence of the estimated 1.4 million undocumented immigrants in Texas in fiscal 2005 would have been a loss to our Gross State Product of $17.7 billion. Also, the Comptroller’s office estimates that state revenues collected from undocumented immigrants exceed what the state spent on services, with the difference being $424.7 million.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specia...documented.pdf at p. 20.

So these undocumented workers that you so compassionately call "leeches," actually benefit our State and our government.

[CuteOldGuy]

The income tax is evil. Simply put, the government gets to decide how much you keep, which means it all actually belongs to the government. In addition, they use the income tax to record where you live, where you work, how you spend your money, how many kids you have, what your spouse does, what investments you have, how much you paid for your house, and so on, and so on. Not only that, but if you screw up your self estimating tax return, they can come take everything you own, without court intervention. You have to prove yourself innocent, they don't have to prove you guilty. All this can be based on information you provide the government, and is used against you, in violation of your Fifth Amendment rights.

Not only that, but the tax code is being used to funnel funds to the politicians rich crony friends, and to the poor to cultivate votes. No wonder the middle class is disappearing. And it won't change as long as we keep electing the same bunch of clowns to office.

We need a system that can't be tampered with in secret. If the rate is a flat 9%, with very little room to hide deductions, then everyone will know who voted to increase their taxes. As it is now, the code is so complex, that taxes can be raised and shifted in the regulations, without an open vote in Congress. So let them try to raise the rate to 15%, 20% or whatever, they will have to do it in an open, exposed vote. Everyone will know who supported the increase, and the people can vote for them again, if they want to.

[CuteOldGuy]

TTH, so we should ignore the law because it is good for the economy. What other laws can we ignore?

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

The income tax is evil. Simply put, the government gets to decide how much you keep, which means it all actually belongs to the government. In addition, they use the income tax to record where you live, where you work, how you spend your money, how many kids you have, what your spouse does, what investments you have, how much you paid for your house, and so on, and so on. Not only that, but if you screw up your self estimating tax return, they can come take everything you own, without court intervention. You have to prove yourself innocent, they don't have to prove you guilty. All this can be based on information you provide the government, and is used against you, in violation of your Fifth Amendment rights.

Not only that, but the tax code is being used to funnel funds to the politicians rich crony friends, and to the poor to cultivate votes. No wonder the middle class is disappearing. And it won't change as long as we keep electing the same bunch of clowns to office.

We need a system that can't be tampered with in secret. If the rate is a flat 9%, with very little room to hide deductions, then everyone will know who voted to increase their taxes. As it is now, the code is so complex, that taxes can be raised and shifted in the regulations, without an open vote in Congress. So let them try to raise the rate to 15%, 20% or whatever, they will have to do it in an open, exposed vote. Everyone will know who supported the increase, and the people can vote for them again, if they want to.

the income tax is huge invasion of privacy. Like why the govt. needs to know how much anyone makes? so, they can "fairly" tax you????

[Doove]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

The income tax is evil. Simply put, the government gets to decide how much you keep, which means it all actually belongs to the government. In addition, they use the income tax to record where you live, where you work, how you spend your money, how many kids you have, what your spouse does, what investments you have, how much you paid for your house, and so on, and so on. Not only that, but if you screw up your self estimating tax return, they can come take everything you own, without court intervention. You have to prove yourself innocent, they don't have to prove you guilty. All this can be based on information you provide the government, and is used against you, in violation of your Fifth Amendment rights.

But it doesn't keep you from moving to another country. So help yourself.

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

TTH, so we should ignore the law because it is good for the economy.

Why not? We ignore the science of climate change because of the economy.

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

TTH, so we should ignore the law because it is good for the economy. What other laws can we ignore?

Actually, I think we have a moral duty to disobey laws that are sufficiently unjust. But that's another topic.

I'm just pointing out that Gift Giver was either 1) clearly uninformed; and/or 2) that his apparent hatred of undocumented workers must actually be motivated by another factor than the one he stated. There are multiple studies of their impact on the U.S. economy and almost all of them show that their contribution is a net positive (as much as anything because of Social Security taxes pain in but no benefits drawn down).

And if an income tax is so unjust, how to you propose to fund government in a matter than is not regressive or doesn't shift even more of the tax burden onto the less fortunate? Do you have a proposal that's not a continuation of the class warfare that the Republicans have been waging for the last 30 years?