Values not guns are the problem

[JD Barleycorn]

I will still ask the question; what has changed between then and now. We had guns then, powerful guns (Bonnie and Clyde were notorious for carrying fully automatic BARs) but the vast majority of criminals avoided civilian casualties. Even bloody Chicago rose up when organized crime started kiling civilians and the police cracked down. Al Capone was also famous for reducing crime when it interfered in his business. The mad dog killer was vilified and hunted down. Today they are made into video games, movies, and can see on all the channels,

The Timothy McVeigh crack disgusting and below the belt. Assault weapons are few and far between. Guns that look like assault weapons are everywhere. More importantly, guns that the government has called assault weapons (like my Garand) have become targets of the gun grabbing crowd which telegraphs their real intents. Yes, the venerable old war hero the M-1 Garand is an assault rifle by the standard of the 1995 Assault Weapons Ban.
I was watching FOX, ABC, and PBS this morning. I recall everyone sounded pretty reasonable including liberal Joe Lieberman of CT. On ABC they had a Congress woman, a black, democratic Congress woman and every other thing she said was "we have to get the guns". She was corrected several times by even liberal guests on current gun laws but she kept going back to her mantra "we have to get the guns". That is the worst thing about the left, they won't let facts get in the way of their desires.

[CJ7]

blame it on whoever and whatever ... we'll never know what made the kid snap. One things for sure. Outlaw anything you want and people can still get it on the black market, they just pay more for it, and deal with covert thugs getting it ..

[Doove]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

That's certainly true in most cases, but there are exceptions. If you look at the siblings of some recent high profile murderers, you'll see that their brothers and sisters raised by the same parents are very often model citizens.

So what you're saying is that a person's societal surroundings have a large impact on the type of person that they become?

How very interesting.

[LexusLover]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

On ABC they had a Congress woman, a black, democratic Congress woman and every other thing she said was "we have to get the guns". She was corrected several times .....

Please tell me it wasn't our own .... Sheila Jackson .... ? She's still watching TV from the Mars rover to see if she can see the U.S. flag placed there in the 60's by our Astronauts!

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by LexusLover

Please tell me it wasn't our own .... Sheila Jackson .... ? She's still watching TV from the Mars rover to see if she can see the U.S. flag placed there in the 60's by our Astronauts!

Sheila Jackson Lee is no longer the stupidest congressperson. Hank Johnson makes her look intelligent. He thinks Guam is in danger of capsizing. It's a wonder Obama hasn't chosen him for a cabinet position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bs23CjIWMgA

[CuteOldGuy]

Originally Posted by Randy4Candy

Enforcement is the key, as I said in the other thread about the most recent killings of children. We have at least plenty of laws, and I know some say too many. Fair enough, BUT since our rugged individualist, Teawipe brethern and sistah, and the rest of the complacent, greedy folks out there insist on it, we have government on the cheap, by the cheap and for the cheap. We refuse to do what is necessary to make it harder for these things to happen. We'll never completely eradicate human-on-human violence but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't seriously try. But, we are arrogant and delusional enough as a society to think that we can police the world, build other countries into the shape of our own, all the while neglecting our own country.

Sure, we can have the TSA searching every car on every street corner, cameras and microphones on every light post watching and listening to our every move, drones with heat sensitive cameras looking inside our houses, smart TV's and smart phones chronicling our every breath, NSA monitors looking at all our electronic communication, and we'd be safe.

We wouldn't be America, but we'd be safe.

[AlbanyBlonde]

I don't know how they calculated this average, but it's interesting nonetheless...

[Whirlaway]

It is called response time; you wait (phone-it-in), you die.

[AlbanyBlonde]

This is a very good article in reference to one individuals experience with Mental Health Care in the US. It had been posted in another Thread.


I Am Adam Lanza’s Mother

Liza Long
Three days before 20-year-old Adam Lanza killed his mother, then opened fire on a classroom full of Connecticut kindergartners, my 13-year-old son Michael (name changed) missed his bus because he was wearing the wrong color pants.
"I can wear these pants," he said, his tone increasingly belligerent, the black-hole pupils of his eyes swallowing the blue irises.
"They are navy blue," I told him. "Your school's dress code says black or khaki pants only."
"They told me I could wear these," he insisted. "You're a stupid bitch. I can wear whatever pants I want to. This is America. I have rights!"
"You can't wear whatever pants you want to," I said, my tone affable, reasonable. "And you definitely cannot call me a stupid bitch. You're grounded from electronics for the rest of the day. Now get in the car, and I will take you to school."
I live with a son who is mentally ill. I love my son. But he terrifies me.
A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his overdue library books. His 7- and 9-year-old siblings knew the safety plan—they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them to. I managed to get the knife from Michael, then methodically collected all the sharp objects in the house into a single Tupperware container that now travels with me. Through it all, he continued to scream insults at me and threaten to kill or hurt me.
That conflict ended with three burly police officers and a paramedic wrestling my son onto a gurney for an expensive ambulance ride to the local emergency room. The mental hospital didn't have any beds that day, and Michael calmed down nicely in the ER, so they sent us home with a prescription for Zyprexa and a follow-up visit with a local pediatric psychiatrist.
We still don't know what's wrong with Michael. Autism spectrum, ADHD, Oppositional Defiant or Intermittent Explosive Disorder have all been tossed around at various meetings with probation officers and social workers and counselors and teachers and school administrators. He's been on a slew of antipsychotic and mood-altering pharmaceuticals, a Russian novel of behavioral plans. Nothing seems to work.
At the start of seventh grade, Michael was accepted to an accelerated program for highly gifted math and science students. His IQ is off the charts. When he's in a good mood, he will gladly bend your ear on subjects ranging from Greek mythology to the differences between Einsteinian and Newtonian physics to Doctor Who. He's in a good mood most of the time. But when he's not, watch out. And it's impossible to predict what will set him off.
Several weeks into his new junior high school, Michael began exhibiting increasingly odd and threatening behaviors at school. We decided to transfer him to the district's most restrictive behavioral program, a contained school environment where children who can't function in normal classrooms can access their right to free public babysitting from 7:30 to 1:50 Monday through Friday until they turn 18.
The morning of the pants incident, Michael continued to argue with me on the drive. He would occasionally apologize and seem remorseful. Right before we turned into his school parking lot, he said, "Look, Mom, I'm really sorry. Can I have video games back today?"
"No way," I told him. "You cannot act the way you acted this morning and think you can get your electronic privileges back that quickly."
His face turned cold, and his eyes were full of calculated rage. "Then I'm going to kill myself," he said. "I'm going to jump out of this car right now and kill myself."
That was it. After the knife incident, I told him that if he ever said those words again, I would take him straight to the mental hospital, no ifs, ands, or buts. I did not respond, except to pull the car into the opposite lane, turning left instead of right.
"Where are you taking me?" he said, suddenly worried. "Where are we going?"
"You know where we are going," I replied.
"No! You can't do that to me! You're sending me to hell! You're sending me straight to hell!"
I pulled up in front of the hospital, frantically waving for one of the clinicians who happened to be standing outside. "Call the police," I said. "Hurry."
Michael was in a full-blown fit by then, screaming and hitting. I hugged him close so he couldn't escape from the car. He bit me several times and repeatedly jabbed his elbows into my rib cage. I'm still stronger than he is, but I won't be for much longer.
The police came quickly and carried my son screaming and kicking into the bowels of the hospital. I started to shake, and tears filled my eyes as I filled out the paperwork—"Were there any difficulties with… at what age did your child… were there any problems with.. has your child ever experienced.. does your child have…"
At least we have health insurance now. I recently accepted a position with a local college, giving up my freelance career because when you have a kid like this, you need benefits. You'll do anything for benefits. No individual insurance plan will cover this kind of thing.
For days, my son insisted that I was lying—that I made the whole thing up so that I could get rid of him. The first day, when I called to check up on him, he said, "I hate you. And I'm going to get my revenge as soon as I get out of here."
By day three, he was my calm, sweet boy again, all apologies and promises to get better. I've heard those promises for years. I don't believe them anymore.
On the intake form, under the question, "What are your expectations for treatment?" I wrote, "I need help."
And I do. This problem is too big for me to handle on my own. Sometimes there are no good options. So you just pray for grace and trust that in hindsight, it will all make sense.
I am sharing this story because I am Adam Lanza's mother. I am Dylan Klebold's and Eric Harris's mother. I am Jason Holmes's mother. I am Jared Loughner's mother. I am Seung-Hui Cho's mother. And these boys—and their mothers—need help. In the wake of another horrific national tragedy, it's easy to talk about guns. But it's time to talk about mental illness.
According to Mother Jones, since 1982, 61 mass murders involving firearms have occurred throughout the country. Of these, 43 of the killers were white males, and only one was a woman. Mother Jones focused on whether the killers obtained their guns legally (most did). But this highly visible sign of mental illness should lead us to consider how many people in the U.S. live in fear, like I do.
When I asked my son's social worker about my options, he said that the only thing I could do was to get Michael charged with a crime. "If he's back in the system, they'll create a paper trail," he said. "That's the only way you're ever going to get anything done. No one will pay attention to you unless you've got charges."
I don't believe my son belongs in jail. The chaotic environment exacerbates Michael's sensitivity to sensory stimuli and doesn't deal with the underlying pathology. But it seems like the United States is using prison as the solution of choice for mentally ill people. According to Human Rights Watch, the number of mentally ill inmates in U.S. prisons quadrupled from 2000 to 2006, and it continues to rise—in fact, the rate of inmate mental illness is five times greater (56 percent) than in the non-incarcerated population.
With state-run treatment centers and hospitals shuttered, prison is now the last resort for the mentally ill—Rikers Island, the LA County Jail and Cook County Jail in Illinois housed the nation's largest treatment centers in 2011.
No one wants to send a 13-year-old genius who loves Harry Potter and his snuggle animal collection to jail. But our society, with its stigma on mental illness and its broken healthcare system, does not provide us with other options. Then another tortured soul shoots up a fast food restaurant. A mall. A kindergarten classroom. And we wring our hands and say, "Something must be done."
I agree that something must be done. It's time for a meaningful, nation-wide conversation about mental health. That's the only way our nation can ever truly heal.
God help me. God help Michael. God help us all.

Liza Long, is an author, musician, and erstwhile classicist. she is also a single mother of four bright, loved children, one of whom has special needs.

[Guest123018-4]

All too much of our society has lost touch with the value of life and have no respect for it.
It doesn't matter if it is the Tylenol killer or a killer with an automobile or a killer with a shank or a killer with fire or a killer with an aircraft or a killer with a gun, the acceptability of some that killing is little more than a statement of their emotion is a sickness in our society.
When gangsters are idolized something is terribly wrong.
Could it be that our acceptance of societal killing via abortion or the death penalty somehow lessens the value of life and leads us to things such as this.

In reality , there are a number of really sick fucks out there that dream of shit like this and get it horribly wrong.
If you are determined to kill yourself,; please, please leave everybody else out of it..

[i'va biggen]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

I will still ask the question; what has changed between then and now. We had guns then, powerful guns (Bonnie and Clyde were notorious for carrying fully automatic BARs) but the vast majority of criminals avoided civilian casualties. Even bloody Chicago rose up when organized crime started kiling civilians and the police cracked down. Al Capone was also famous for reducing crime when it interfered in his business. The mad dog killer was vilified and hunted down. Today they are made into video games, movies, and can see on all the channels,

The Timothy McVeigh crack disgusting and below the belt. Assault weapons are few and far between. Guns that look like assault weapons are everywhere. More importantly, guns that the government has called assault weapons (like my Garand) have become targets of the gun grabbing crowd which telegraphs their real intents. Yes, the venerable old war hero the M-1 Garand is an assault rifle by the standard of the 1995 Assault Weapons Ban.
I was watching FOX, ABC, and PBS this morning. I recall everyone sounded pretty reasonable including liberal Joe Lieberman of CT. On ABC they had a Congress woman, a black, democratic Congress woman and every other thing she said was "we have to get the guns". She was corrected several times by even liberal guests on current gun laws but she kept going back to her mantra "we have to get the guns". That is the worst thing about the left, they won't let facts get in the way of their desires.

Don't know where you have been,but there is no ban on assault rifles or clips.Didn't you notice the kid had a assault rifle in the school.That was legally purchased.

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by i'va biggen

Don't know where you have been,but there is no ban on assault rifles or clips.Didn't you notice the kid had a assault rifle in the school.That was legally purchased.

pretty sure they said he had one in the car ... 3 pistols on his person

[Doove]

I wanna get back to Joe bloe admitting that one's upbringing has a profound impact on the type of person they become.

How about it Joe?

[Doove]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

It is called response time; you wait (phone-it-in), you die.

And you bring a gun to a gun fight, you die.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0930121512.htm

Sep. 30, 2009 — In a first-of its-kind study, epidemiologists at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine found that, on average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. The study estimated that people with a gun were 4.5 times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not possessing a gun.

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

More importantly, guns that the government has called assault weapons (like my Garand) have become targets of the gun grabbing crowd which telegraphs their real intents. Yes, the venerable old war hero the M-1 Garand is an assault rifle by the standard of the 1995 Assault Weapons Ban.
.

Wrong.

A standard M-1 Garand is not an assault rifle.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/10/2...t-weapons-ban/