Count #19 in the trump document indictment

[Salty Again]

Originally Posted by royamcr

They are tied in the polls at this point.

... NOT tied in this one - Washington Post/ABC News poll.

TRUMP now LEADS Joe Biden by TEN POINTS!

Maybe they can indict Trump again and RAISE His lead
another TEN points or so...

So much for Count #19 ... Voters surely don't seem to care.

#### Salty

[royamcr]

That was a poll of 1006 people. That is like .00005% of the population. Nothingburger.

[Tigbitties38]

The laws involved are in place for situations just like this. Trump doesn't give a shit about the law. These laws force trump to obey them or face the consequences. The penalties show how serious the offenses are.
None of the laws involved in the indictment are obscure or unclear in definition. Their purpose and intentions are clear.
It's not hard to keep from breaking the law. Laws aren't made so the government has a way of charging anybody with a crime. If making a claim like that it would seem you could provide examples.
The idea laws are made so they can put anybody in jail is pretty far fetched.
Trump had numerous opportunities to return the documents in question. He ignored subpoenas and lied about having them in possession.
He is also charged with obstruction of justice.
Fuck the law? Now we know where you stand on this situation. If you can't understand why these laws are important, there isn't much to say. At the least you should admit national security could have been compromised by trump's sloppy handling of the material. The picture taken of the spilled box of documents is an excellent example. One of trump's guys took a picture and sent it to his coworker. Neither knew how the box was spilled. Which shows non-cleared people had access to the boxes.
This is not a technicality or something that isn't a serious infraction of our national security laws. Trump shouldn't have taken the documents in the first place. And he actively tried to conceal the files he retained. All the false equivalencies in the world don't lessen the facts known in this case. Trump made no attempt to return all documents.
Count #19 is a document detailing nuclear secrets. What possible reason could trump have for keeping the document? Moot point. Ego or any other reason is are not justifications to break the law.
Your opinion on the seriousness of the law are opinions. Below are the charges and some examples of the law being applied. I'm not going to argue how serious these charges are. War plans, nuclear weapon information, as well as other classified documents need to be protected and secured. Trump's disregard for the laws and his attempts at covering up his crimes need to be dealt with.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...-case-00108667

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ns-mar-a-lago/

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/forme...fied-documents


The gov attorneys are needed because other attorneys will be looking for loopholes in current or proposed laws. The purpose of a law can be skirted if the attorneys miss a key sentence or if an "and" or an "or" are used incorrectly(or any number of similar mistakes are made).

Originally Posted by Tiny

That’s right, it means nothing. We live under a government of the lawyers, by the lawyers and for the lawyers. We have the highest incarceration rate in the world. The Democrats want to put white businessmen (e.g. Trump) in jail. And the Republicans would disproportionately put young black men in jail for nonviolent violations related to a subject we don’t discuss here. It’s now a state jail felony to see a provider in Texas.

There’s a reason law professor and civil rights advocate Harvey Silverglate titled his book Three Felonies a Day. There are a ton of laws on the books, to enable prosecutors to put any person they want in jail, including Mother Teresa, if she were still alive.

Fuck the LAW. If I were dictator and Snowden resurfaced I’d put him in an ankle bracelet. And I wouldn’t give Trump jail time for confidential records violations either.

Your selective application of laws using someone or the subject goes against the Constitution. Equal use of the laws in practice is something that should be observed
Not after the fact claims the law is unfair.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Tigbitties38

The laws involved are in place for situations just like this. Trump doesn't give a shit about the law. These laws force trump to obey them or face the consequences. The penalties show how serious the offenses are.
None of the laws involved in the indictment are obscure or unclear in definition. Their purpose and intentions are clear.
It's not hard to keep from breaking the law. Laws aren't made so the government has a way of charging anybody with a crime. If making a claim like that it would seem you could provide examples.
The idea laws are made so they can put anybody in jail is pretty far fetched.
Trump had numerous opportunities to return the documents in question. He ignored subpoenas and lied about having them in possession.
He is also charged with obstruction of justice.
Fuck the law? Now we know where you stand on this situation. If you can't understand why these laws are important, there isn't much to say. At the least you should admit national security could have been compromised by trump's sloppy handling of the material. The picture taken of the spilled box of documents is an excellent example. One of trump's guys took a picture and sent it to his coworker. Neither knew how the box was spilled. Which shows non-cleared people had access to the boxes.
This is not a technicality or something that isn't a serious infraction of our national security laws. Trump shouldn't have taken the documents in the first place. And he actively tried to conceal the files he retained. All the false equivalencies in the world don't lessen the facts known in this case. Trump made no attempt to return all documents.
Count #19 is a document detailing nuclear secrets. What possible reason could trump have for keeping the document? Moot point. Ego or any other reason is are not justifications to break the law.
Your opinion on the seriousness of the law are opinions. Below are the charges and some examples of the law being applied. I'm not going to argue how serious these charges are. War plans, nuclear weapon information, as well as other classified documents need to be protected and secured. Trump's disregard for the laws and his attempts at covering up his crimes need to be dealt with.

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/0...-case-00108667

https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...ns-mar-a-lago/

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/forme...fied-documents

Your selective application of laws using someone or the subject goes against the Constitution. Equal use of the laws in practice is something that should be observed
Not after the fact claims the law is unfair.

If I were dictator the Constitution wouldn't mean diddly squat. Instead we'd have The Law of Tiny.

And I am being fair. Snowden leaked U.S. secrets on the internet for all the world to see. Trump just left them lying around in the bathroom, the bedroom, wherever. And hid them from the DOJ. So Snowden gets the ankle bracelet. Trump does not get one for confidential records violations and extreme narcissism. I would however give him an ankle bracelet for trying to upend over 230 years of American Democracy.

Please read these books and then come back and argue about the rest of what you posted.

https://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Un.../dp/0891951342

https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonie.../dp/1594035229

You're like a Baptist trying to convince an unmarried Buddhist that it's immoral to swim or dance with the opposite sex. That kind of argument might work with a Church of Christer. But not the Buddhist. Similarly you're not going to convince a Libertarian anarcho capitalist to start chunking people in jail for improper handling of confidential documents and lying to the government.

[Tigbitties38]

What rude comments?

The 51 experts didn't lie. Once again, The 51 experts clearly said they didn't know if the laptop information was true or not. And they didn't swear it was Russian disinformation either. They said it "has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation"
So you claim the "51 national security experts" are lying. Where are the lies in the red text above? Here is a link to the document.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000...7-579f9b330000

The "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA Hoax"?

What hoax?

Partisan Claims of ‘Russia Hoax’ Revived Ahead of 2020 Election

"In reality, the connections between Trump campaign associates and individuals tied to the Russian government during the 2016 election have been well documented in reports from special counsel Robert S. Mueller and the Republican-controlled Senate Intelligence Committee. Both found evidence that justified the investigation into those ties, although neither report found evidence of a criminal conspiracy."

The investigation didn't find enough evidence to charge trump. The only people who still bring up the "hoax" are trumpys.
What lies are contained in the Mueller Report?

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/pa...2020-election/

You have yet to show what lies are being told. I included links that show the truth in the information I posted. Like I said, repeating something over and over doesn't make it true. If the rolls were reversed, I would revel in providing a link that proved you wrong. Instead you continue posting baseless/debunked misinformation.

Originally Posted by Jackie S

To The Administrator:

If you are calling me out, may I point out that I believe all of the so called experts listed in the OP are lying just like the liars that propagated the RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA Hoax.

I can live with the OP’s rude comments toward me. It is up to you whether the Board can.

I don't recall ever hearing that said. Link for proof?

I did read them say;
"WASHINGTON, June 18 (Reuters) - Even when he was president, Donald Trump lacked the legal authority to declassify a U.S. nuclear weapons-related document that he is charged with illegally possessing, security experts said, contrary to the former U.S. president’s claim.

The secret document, listed as No. 19 in the indictment charging Trump with endangering national security, can under the Atomic Energy Act only be declassified through a process that by the statute involves the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense.
For that reason, the experts said, the nuclear document is unique among the 31 in the indictment because the declassification of the others is governed by executive order.
“The claim that he (Trump) could have declassified it is not relevant in the case of the nuclear weapons information because it was not classified by executive order but by law,” said Steven Aftergood, a government secrecy expert with the Federation of American Scientists.

Did you catch that? The experts said he couldn't declassify the nuclear weapons information, not regular classified documents.

Originally Posted by Jackie S

“51 National Security Experts say President Trump could not de-classify documents”

Ambiguous indictments? To the contrary. they are very specific and detailed.
The 51 experts didn't swear anything.

The 51 experts clearly said they didn't know if the laptop information was true or not. And they didn't swear it was Russian disinformation either. They said it "has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation".
They gave several examples of like operations done by the Russians to back their claim.
They clearly stated it was their opinion. We don't know what is true and what isn't. There is no smoking gun. There are no verified responses sent by hunter biden. It took a year before any info was confirmed by a second source forensic audit. Fox and WSJ both passed on the story because they couldn't confirm the story. The authors of the story refused to put their names on it.


Lie after lie about trump? That sounds like a trumpy stock statement. What lies? Can you name two?

How did they push lies about your Russia Hoax (which I showed wasn't a hoax)?

What lies were published as fact? You mean like Fox news and their lies about the election?

Originally Posted by Jackie S

To the contrary, it is exactly on topic. Just as “51 experts” swore that Hunter’s Lap Top was Russian disinformation and helped the likes of Adam Schiff and Jerry Nadler push the RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA lie, we now have “Experts” helping a corrupt Justice Department in their quest to bring down Trump with ambiguous indictments.

The Left used up any smidgen of credibility they ever had by parading forth Super Swampers such as Brennen and Clapper to propagate lie after lie after lie about President Trump, knowing that a corrupt Main Stream Media would publish it all as fact.

Why is it I have links to back up my claims and you can't/won't show links to backup your claims?

[Tigbitties38]

You would give him an ankle bracelet for upending over 230 years of American democracy? How special.
None of this has anything to do with the OP which is about count #19 in the indictment. The only count involving a document that couldn't have possibly been declassified by trump.

Originally Posted by Tiny

If I were dictator the Constitution wouldn't mean diddly squat. Instead we'd have The Law of Tiny.

And I am being fair. Snowden leaked U.S. secrets on the internet for all the world to see. Trump just left them lying around in the bathroom, the bedroom, wherever. And hid them from the DOJ. So Snowden gets the ankle bracelet. Trump does not get one for confidential records violations and extreme narcissism. I would however give him an ankle bracelet for trying to upend over 230 years of American Democracy.

Please read these books and then come back and argue about the rest of what you posted.

https://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Un.../dp/0891951342

https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonie.../dp/1594035229

You're like a Baptist trying to convince an unmarried Buddhist that it's immoral to swim or dance with the opposite sex. That kind of argument might work with a Church of Christer. But not the Buddhist. Similarly you're not going to convince a Libertarian anarcho capitalist to start chunking people in jail for improper handling of confidential documents and lying to the government.

[Salty Again]

... Politico and Factcheck...??

"Why is it" - indeed!

... Not sure IF you're tryin' to persuade yourself
- or everyone else.

... The 51 Intelligence Officials ALREADY KNEW the laptop was real.
Brennan and Clapper did. ... As did the FBI and DOJ.

#### Salty

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by Tigbitties38

You would give him an ankle bracelet for upending over 230 years of American democracy? How special.
None of this has anything to do with the OP which is about count #19 in the indictment. The only count involving a document that couldn't have possibly been declassified by trump.

Not just any ankle bracelet. One with stars and stripes commissioned to an up and coming American artist! Special indeed!

There's a balancing act here. If we let an ex-president off Scot free after he tries to upend American Democracy, we look like a banana Republic. If we put an ex-president in jail, we also look like a banana Republic. The ankle bracelet seems like a good compromise, so we may remain, in the words of Barrack Obama, a Shining City Upon a Hill. A beacon of light to the rest of the world.

Respectfully, if you want people to only comment about count #19 and not Trump's confidential records violations in general, you're taking the "hijacking" thing to a new level. If we start getting that specific about everything it's going to make the forum less interesting and more people will drop out.

[The_Waco_Kid]

Originally Posted by Tigbitties38

What rude comments?

The 51 experts didn't lie. Once again, The 51 experts clearly said they didn't know if the laptop information was true or not. And they didn't swear it was Russian disinformation either. They said it "has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation"
So you claim the "51 national security experts" are lying. Where are the lies in the red text above? Here is a link to the document.

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000...7-579f9b330000

The "RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA Hoax"?

What hoax?

Partisan Claims of ‘Russia Hoax’ Revived Ahead of 2020 Election

"In reality, the connections between Trump campaign associates and individuals tied to the Russian government during the 2016 election have been well documented in reports from special counsel Robert S. Mueller and the Republican-controlled Senate Intelligence Committee. Both found evidence that justified the investigation into those ties, although neither report found evidence of a criminal conspiracy."

The investigation didn't find enough evidence to charge trump. The only people who still bring up the "hoax" are trumpys.
What lies are contained in the Mueller Report?

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/pa...2020-election/

You have yet to show what lies are being told. I included links that show the truth in the information I posted. Like I said, repeating something over and over doesn't make it true. If the rolls were reversed, I would revel in providing a link that proved you wrong. Instead you continue posting baseless/debunked misinformation.



I don't recall ever hearing that said. Link for proof?

I did read them say;
"WASHINGTON, June 18 (Reuters) - Even when he was president, Donald Trump lacked the legal authority to declassify a U.S. nuclear weapons-related document that he is charged with illegally possessing, security experts said, contrary to the former U.S. president’s claim.

The secret document, listed as No. 19 in the indictment charging Trump with endangering national security, can under the Atomic Energy Act only be declassified through a process that by the statute involves the Department of Energy and the Department of Defense.
For that reason, the experts said, the nuclear document is unique among the 31 in the indictment because the declassification of the others is governed by executive order.
“The claim that he (Trump) could have declassified it is not relevant in the case of the nuclear weapons information because it was not classified by executive order but by law,” said Steven Aftergood, a government secrecy expert with the Federation of American Scientists.

Did you catch that? The experts said he couldn't declassify the nuclear weapons information, not regular classified documents.

Ambiguous indictments? To the contrary. they are very specific and detailed.
The 51 experts didn't swear anything.

The 51 experts clearly said they didn't know if the laptop information was true or not. And they didn't swear it was Russian disinformation either. They said it "has all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation".
They gave several examples of like operations done by the Russians to back their claim.
They clearly stated it was their opinion. We don't know what is true and what isn't. There is no smoking gun. There are no verified responses sent by hunter biden. It took a year before any info was confirmed by a second source forensic audit. Fox and WSJ both passed on the story because they couldn't confirm the story. The authors of the story refused to put their names on it.


Lie after lie about trump? That sounds like a trumpy stock statement. What lies? Can you name two?

How did they push lies about your Russia Hoax (which I showed wasn't a hoax)?

What lies were published as fact? You mean like Fox news and their lies about the election?
Why is it I have links to back up my claims and you can't/won't show links to backup your claims?

they didn't lie. they implied .. which is worse than lying. they knew .. as security "experts" that the FBI had Biden's laptop since Jan 2020 and had already verified it was authentic.


yet they implied it wasn't authentic and a russkie disinformation campaign when
if they were experts with inside knowledge knew it was genuine.


and trotting out biased links doesn't prove much except the left will lie to protect their agenda.


oh and let's not forget the Mueller scam which it was. anything in the Mueller report has not been used in any way against Trump since that pile of crap was written.


ask yourself why. it was as bogus as the "Steele Dossier"


bahahahaa

[Jackie S]

Originally Posted by Salty Again

... Politico and Factcheck...??

"Why is it" - indeed!

... Not sure IF you're tryin' to persuade yourself
- or everyone else.

... The 51 Intelligence Officials ALREADY KNEW the laptop was real.
Brennan and Clapper did. ... As did the FBI and DOJ.

#### Salty

You’re wasting your time.

You are trying to convince a history “revisionist”.

[eyecu2]

Originally Posted by Jackie S

You’re wasting your time.

You are trying to convince a history “revisionist”.

Oh I thought you were referring to TWK. He's got his own terms like "implied" , "alternative facts", and his recollection of the Mueller report is almost 180 degrees of what happened. But he posts good Political cartoons, so for that I'm thankful.

If you're trying to change hearts and minds on a hooker board, it's likely you're already failing. LOL (That last line was for me and anyone who thinks they are making a difference.)