This cannot be possible. Election fraud isn’t real, say the libtards and the media

[Devo]

Originally Posted by eyecu2

There are many rural areas where people don't have Photo ID's and live very much an off the grid lifestyle. The courts have already ruled that they do not need to have official ID, photo ID etc., but they do have to be registered. That's likely where the comparison needs to be for voting fraud. Are you registered and not a convict (as was the point of the OP in this thread), or are you in some other way ineligible to vote. Those sources should be compared against any and all databases of voters, so those votes are void. The rest, should count. Just cause MahMah Jones who lives down in the hollow in WV don't have any ID -should she lose her rights to vote. Voting Rights Act (1965) limited shit like- literacy tests and other tactics to keep voters away. Sadly- it seems some of the ppl on this board would like to limit voting to those who own property or have only the kind of ID they agree with. Cause someone said there is all kinds of fraud- yet not much in the way of proof. None of the 70 lawsuits that Trump filed supported it. But still they cry fraud and foul. It's almost as if you've been kicked in the balls or swatted on the ass, and reply " thank you sir, may I have another"!

Yeah right, its a redneck Trump voter complaining about being disenfranchised to produce ID.

NOT, its blacks, 100 percent of the time, and there are quite a few who resent being told they are so backwards that they can't get an ID card.

Your statement is a double racist comment, slurring both white rednecks and every black person who proves the allegations they can't get ID is wrong.

Amazing how libtards can flip flop an argument 180 degrees, to justify their opinions, and, be wrong in both directions.

That is called being a liar, if you were looking for a term.

[anmar85]

Yeeeesh, can we maybe stow the insults from everyone and refrain from saying stuff like "it's blacks" for this thread? A few of us are actually managing to have a pretty reasonable measured conversation about this stuff for a change. Truth of the matter is that about 11% of the American population doesn't have a valid form of photo ID. That can be for a range of reasons, though that statistic does tend to skew more heavily towards lower income areas where easy access to a DMV is less likely, and the population of those areas tend to skew more towards being people of color. The reason why is a whole ass other big can of worms that's worthy of its own thread if you want to get into it. That doesn't totally discount people who just don't have entirely easy access or the means to get it. Old people still exist, as well as disabled folks, and their voice is just as valid as anyone else's when it comes to elections. If we want to be in a system where a valid photo ID is required to use our right to vote then we need to make sure everyone has incredibly easy access to it.


If we DON'T want to increase the ease of access for an ID for the folks who might have some legitimate issues getting one, then that ain't the solution.


Hopefully no one is replying to this already, but I got another issue with requiring a photo ID. How would you even handle mail in voting at that point? Do you have to like photocopy your ID or something?

[Devo]

Originally Posted by anmar85

Yeeeesh, can we maybe stow the insults from everyone and refrain from saying stuff like "it's blacks" for this thread? A few of us are actually managing to have a pretty reasonable measured conversation about this stuff for a change. Truth of the matter is that about 11% of the American population doesn't have a valid form of photo ID. That can be for a range of reasons, though that statistic does tend to skew more heavily towards lower income areas where easy access to a DMV is less likely, and the population of those areas tend to skew more towards being people of color. The reason why is a whole ass other big can of worms that's worthy of its own thread if you want to get into it. That doesn't totally discount people who just don't have entirely easy access or the means to get it. Old people still exist, as well as disabled folks, and their voice is just as valid as anyone else's when it comes to elections. If we want to be in a system where a valid photo ID is required to use our right to vote then we need to make sure everyone has incredibly easy access to it.


If we DON'T want to increase the ease of access for an ID for the folks who might have some legitimate issues getting one, then that ain't the solution.

My point about who is disenfranchised is spot on, its always a minority, and its insulting to them, as was the comment about country folk.

I dispute a 10 percent figure, show me the facts, you cannot exist in society without an ID, if its near 10 percent, then it must be the 30 million illegal aliens that are estimated to be in the USA, and even they can get drivers licenses.

IF you don't have ID, you don't want to have ID.

[Devo]

And even if they wanted an ID, do you allow fraud to go on for a few people?

ID was a problem in Iraq and Afghanistan, so, you put a fingerprint on your ballot that gave you a purple digit for a month, why not use an on site finger print, like some banks do on checks?

Why not, because even then the DEMS would roll out some sad sack claiming having his print taken is disenfranchisement.

[anmar85]

Okay I was actually going to go find the research study about the percentage of people in the country who lack valid photo ID's, but then I realized that the argument I'm going up against was literally "I don't believe that, and if it is true it's because of this other unrelated thing" Sorry man. You don't have to believe me. Either way, how does a fingerprint OR a valid photo ID address people who vote by mail? Who are they showing their ID to?


As far as whether or not I would be happy to allow fraud to go on to better service those who need it? I mean that's a more complicated question than you're letting on. First off we have to go with some of the original counter argument of this thread. Is there statistically speaking a large enough amount of invalid votes to justify leaving people out? I don't think. The reported cases of it aren't really that out of the ordinary from any other country wide election.


I know I don't like engaging in hypotheticals, but I'm going to break with that for a second. Let's say we do find some kind of evidence of some massive systemic voter fraud. I still probably wouldn't think a solution that leaves out a percentage of the population that has done nothing wrong is a good solution. Old people and a percentage of the disabled who don't have reasonable means to get their ID's renewed? Well fuck 'em. That doesn't sit right with me.



Also as a quick aside, you're the only one trying to bring race into this conversation for some reason. No one else in this thread is saying that. I'm seriously and humbly asking you to chill out on that. It makes it super hard to engage with you in good faith. You got a problem with how politicians are framing things? Write a congressperson. No one else in this thread is actively engaging in it.

[HDGristle]

Originally Posted by Devo

And even if they wanted an ID, do you allow fraud to go on for a few people?

ID was a problem in Iraq and Afghanistan, so, you put a fingerprint on your ballot that gave you a purple digit for a month, why not use an on site finger print, like some banks do on checks?

Why not, because even then the DEMS would roll out some sad sack claiming having his print taken is disenfranchisement.

And the less gov, "muh freedahm" crowd wouldn't consent either

[Jacuzzme]

Originally Posted by anmar85

Oh I'm all for greater access to identification, just good luck getting the majority of the people who want to require a photo ID for voting to get on board with a sweeping social program like that lol

They tried already, dems wouldn’t go for it. The idea was to use a book-mobile type arrangement that went to different areas on different days that would produce state IDs, for free.

Why don’t we dispatch with the horseshit that anyone is concerned about Granny Clampett. Everyone knows why democrats are against voter ID. They think black people are too stupid, or have to many warrants to have/use an ID, and it makes elections more secure. In other words, they’re racists who want to be able to continue stuffing ballot boxes.

Either way, how does a fingerprint OR a valid photo ID address people who vote by mail?

That should be done away with completely. It should be 1 day, a national holiday, in person only, with precincts required to submit their totals within 3 hours of the polls closing. Right now our elections are an unmitigated clusterfuck, that needs to end and is very simple to accomplish.

Also as a quick aside, you're the only one trying to bring race into this conversation for some reason.

That’s because democratic racism and voter ID go hand-in-hand. It’s not possible to have a frank, honest discussion about voter ID without acknowledging why democrats are against it.

[anmar85]

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

They tried already, dems wouldn’t go for it. The idea was to use a book-mobile type arrangement that went to different areas on different days that would produce state IDs, for free.

I mean yeah, I'd be all for something like that personally, and if we wanted to require ID's to vote I think something like that would be a necessary first step to getting there. Mind you that should be a first step. You shouldn't do that and immediately require IDs until that program has been rolled out successfully for a while. I'm not going to get into who does or does not want to do that with politicians, because I think that's a little out of the scope of this convo, but rest assured that at least I think that's a good idea.

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

Why don’t we dispatch with the horseshit that anyone is concerned about Granny Clampett. Everyone knows why democrats are against voter ID. They think black people are too stupid, or have to many warrants to have/use an ID, and it makes elections more secure. In other words, they’re racists who want to be able to continue stuffing ballot boxes.

Well there goes me saying no one else in this thread is trying to engage in bringing race into things. There's other demographics other than economical ones who would have trouble getting an ID, like that's just fact. I can't just accept that those people are just fucked. If anything we should want as many able people to vote as possible right? That's like the backbone of our society. Personally speaking, I am concerned with those people, and insinuating otherwise kind of rubs me the wrong way, hence why I asked Devo to chill with that too. Maybe "the dems" want to say something, but I'm not them. I'm my own person with my own ideas.

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

That should be done away with completely. It should be 1 day, a national holiday, in person only, with precincts required to submit their totals within 3 hours of the polls closing. Right now our elections are an unmitigated clusterfuck, that needs to end and is very simple to accomplish.

I dunno, I kind of disagree with a lot of this wholesale. It's not like this was the first election we ever had mail in voting for. I mean we definitely had a lot more of it than usual, but I think the circumstances kind of called for it. Like what if someone is away at college in another state, but their permanent residence is here? They should still get to vote right? What if someone is in the hospital and physically cannot make it to their polling place? Should they get to vote? How about someone who is overseas on business? Are they out now? I'll agree with one point of that though, election days should absolutely be holidays. It's insane that we don't do that here.

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

That’s because democratic racism and voter ID go hand-in-hand. It’s not possible to have a frank, honest discussion about voter ID without acknowledging why democrats are against it.

Okay, but again. Not a registered democrat and never have been. It's fine if you want to call a nebulous group of people racist and all, but I don't belong to them, so I kind of take issue with you inferring that I'm a racist just because I don't agree with policies that ultimately limit the amount of people who can vote in free elections.

[jmichael]

Originally Posted by Devo

Yeah right, its a redneck Trump voter complaining about being disenfranchised to produce ID.

NOT, its blacks, 100 percent of the time, and there are quite a few who resent being told they are so backwards that they can't get an ID card.

Your statement is a double racist comment, slurring both white rednecks and every black person who proves the allegations they can't get ID is wrong.

Amazing how libtards can flip flop an argument 180 degrees, to justify their opinions, and, be wrong in both directions.

That is called being a liar, if you were looking for a term.

Spoken by the biggest racist who post on the Pittsburgh sand box

[jmichael]

I'll probably get points for this. But, has anyone else Notice Berry has not participated in this posting of Intelligent responses after starting the thread. Anyone else wonder why?

[Devo]

Originally Posted by jmichael

Spoken by the biggest racist who post on the Pittsburgh sand box

Speaking the truth may not be liked by some, but it is the truth.

From the ACLU, a truly non biased group.

Voter ID Laws Are Discriminatory

Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6

States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.

Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7

Voter ID laws reduce turnout among minority voters. Several studies, including a 2014 GAO study, have found that photo ID laws have a particularly depressive effect on turnout among racial minorities and other vulnerable groups, worsening the participation gap between voters of color and whites.8

[Salty Again]

... Good insight on the voting bit from EVERYBODY.

But let's all keep the attacks to each other on the down-low.

#### Salty

[anmar85]

Originally Posted by Salty Again

... Good insight on the voting bit from EVERYBODY.

But let's all keep the attacks to each other on the down-low.

#### Salty

Now that's a sentiment that I can fully get behind! I think that this topic in particular is one that's really worth talking about and hearing other people's views. I personally think it's a pretty complicated problem and it will probably take a creative solution. Making our elections more secure sounds like it should just always be a net positive, but I'm just personally in the camp that if it comes at the cost of perfectly eligible people being able to speak their voice then it is inherently a flawed idea.

[onawbtngr546]

Originally Posted by Jacuzzme

They tried already, dems wouldn’t go for it. The idea was to use a book-mobile type arrangement that went to different areas on different days that would produce state IDs, for free.

Why don’t we dispatch with the horseshit that anyone is concerned about Granny Clampett. Everyone knows why democrats are against voter ID. They think black people are too stupid, or have to many warrants to have/use an ID, and it makes elections more secure. In other words, they’re racists who want to be able to continue stuffing ballot boxes.

Because that costs money, and the majority of that money would likely be spent in red districts, and generally red districts are more often than not, lower class, poorer, uneducated non-white people

That should be done away with completely. It should be 1 day, a national holiday, in person only, with precincts required to submit their totals within 3 hours of the polls closing. Right now our elections are an unmitigated clusterfuck, that needs to end and is very simple to accomplish.

That’s because democratic racism and voter ID go hand-in-hand. It’s not possible to have a frank, honest discussion about voter ID without acknowledging why democrats are against it.

100% agree.The day to vote in your national, local, or state election should be a holiday. This NOT being a holiday also mainly impacts the lower class. Why go out of your way to vote for someone for nothing in return? Need to take off work and not get paid for it. Some people may also be not permitted to take off work (though they should..).


But I also don't agree with in-person only. What about the elderly, or those who are bed bound?





-----

Originally Posted by Devo

Speaking the truth may not be liked by some, but it is the truth.

From the ACLU, a truly non biased group.

Voter ID Laws Are Discriminatory

Minority voters disproportionately lack ID. Nationally, up to 25% of African-American citizens of voting age lack government-issued photo ID, compared to only 8% of whites.6

States exclude forms of ID in a discriminatory manner. Texas allows concealed weapons permits for voting, but does not accept student ID cards. Until its voter ID law was struck down, North Carolina prohibited public assistance IDs and state employee ID cards, which are disproportionately held by Black voters. And until recently, Wisconsin permitted active duty military ID cards, but prohibited Veterans Affairs ID cards for voting.

Voter ID laws are enforced in a discriminatory manner. A Caltech/MIT study found that minority voters are more frequently questioned about ID than are white voters.7

Voter ID laws reduce turnout among minority voters. Several studies, including a 2014 GAO study, have found that photo ID laws have a particularly depressive effect on turnout among racial minorities and other vulnerable groups, worsening the participation gap between voters of color and whites.8

Voter ID laws are not discriminatory against people who do not have IDs if you provide services to help facilitate those people getting IDs.
What is the poor, young black person who lives in the projects and only does under the table jobs because they don't have an ID do when a police offer pulls out their gun or taser and says 'GIVE ME YOUR ID NOW'? Oh wait, roll over and get shot.. because that is currently the status quo... yeah I see the racism there.

Originally Posted by jmichael

I'll probably get points for this. But, has anyone else Notice Berry has not participated in this posting of Intelligent responses after starting the thread. Anyone else wonder why?

[Jacuzzme]

Like what if someone is away at college in another state, but their permanent residence is here? They should still get to vote right? What if someone is in the hospital and physically cannot make it to their polling place? Should they get to vote? How about someone who is overseas on business?

That’s what absentee ballots, with an application process, are for.