Thomas Jefferson on happines vs the nanny state.

[pyramider]

Originally Posted by trynagetlaid

Yeah I saw the movie with Nick Nolte. He fell in love with one in Paris and brought her back in the late 1700's. But I don't think he was alive when most of the slave ships sailed. If he was then he missed the boat (no pun intended)...

You have got to be kidding. Jefferson, and Washington, owned plantations and slaves, plus both had indentured servants.

[ElisabethWhispers]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

The Democrats would dislike Thomas Jefferson because the modern day Democrat party is completely opposed to everything Jefferson believed in. Did you read Kayla's post?

I share your admiration for Franklin. Not only was he a wise and great man, he was also a party animal from what I've read. Of all the founders, Franklin probably would have been the most fun to hang out with.

Fair enough question. You see, I was sitting almost naked in my hotel room waiting for a guest and well, I didn't read the topic THAT closely. But I did like what I read and it was a friend who started the topic, so I mouthed off.

Besides, I have always thought of the founding fathers as younger men who sat in bars and wrote out the constitution (which that is actually true!).

I just finished, a few months back, reading the new bio of Franklin by Isaacson (I think that I'm spelling that right!).

It was a good book and although Ben was a fun guy in France, while he was at home and after he left the states, he basically ignored his wife. Just sent her money ever so often. So in a way, he was a dick.

But otherwise, yes. He's right up there on my list of people that I really admire. I like his books. He was very frugal in his earlier years. He had incredible ideas of thrift and so much more.

So I segued Kayla's topic a bit. Sorry about that.

One thing that I will add, again off the top of my head, parrots what another person wrote above. I cannot believe that anyone could compare the philosophies of one of our greatest founders with the philosophy of the Republican party today. In the grand scheme of things, it's an interesting topic to banter about, but it's hardly relevant to what we're experiencing in this lifetime, politically.

Now, you can crucify me for what I wrote!

Elisabeth

[joe bloe]

Both parties have strayed far from the founder's principles. I just think it's a mistake to say there's no difference between the two parties. Harry Browne, who ran for president twice as a Libertarian, said that voting Republican instead of Democrat is just choosing to go to Hell more slowly. If that's the only choice I have, then I choose the slow lane to Hell. Obama has us in the fast lane with his foot on the gas.

[Doove]

Great! So we're all in agreement that Thomas Jefferson, in 2012, would continue to believe that owning slaves was morally justified.

[gulflover]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

If too much government is problem, and I believe it is, and assuming you have to choose between voting Republican or Democrat, what party do you choose? As imperfect as the Republicans are, they certainly are the lesser of two evils, concerning government growth.

Or at least they talk that way. I'm not so sure it's true post-Nixon.

If Jefferson and the founders were alive today, they sure as Hell would not be supporting Obama and the Democrat party. They might be Republicans or Libertarians, maybe even revolutionaries, but absolutely not Democrats.

If they founding fathers were alive today, they'd be vehemently against both parties. None of the FF could stand factionalism, as they'd seen it's workings in England. Madison in particular hated political parties.

[Laz]

Originally Posted by Doove

Great! So we're all in agreement that Thomas Jefferson, in 2012, would continue to believe that owning slaves was morally justified.

Since he supported laws that would reduce and lead to the elimination of slavery, your comment is silly.

[trynagetlaid]

Upon further reflection, if Jefferson had slaves and they worked hard, I don't see how he could have been so clairvoyant as to realize what they would become when they were set free. Sorry I even mentioned slavery in this context.

Was emancipation even considered during his lifetime? The Civil War started about 30 years after he died.

[CJ7]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

If too much government is problem, and I believe it is, and assuming you have to choose between voting Republican or Democrat, what party do you choose? As imperfect as the Republicans are, they certainly are the lesser of two evils, concerning government growth.

If Jefferson and the founders were alive today, they sure as Hell would not be supporting Obama and the Democrat party. They might be Republicans or Libertarians, maybe even revolutionaries, but absolutely not Democrats.

now thats funny !!


republicans want to create more government on immigration, abortion, gay marriage, and if thats not enough government for them, invade other countries and create more government for them in their spare time

[Doove]

Originally Posted by Laz

Since he supported laws that would reduce and lead to the elimination of slavery, your comment is silly.

His views on slavery were a pretty mixed bag.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_...on_and_slavery

Ultimately, actions trump words.

I do find it interesting that one of his rationales for maintaining slaves seemed to be that blacks were inferior and would be unable to take care of themselves should they be emancipated. Finding a justification to do what you say you're against. Yup, Jefferson would have been a conservative alright.

I do wonder, however, how that would fit in with his views on social programs today. Or maybe he would just want them all shipped back to Africa.

[trynagetlaid]

Originally Posted by Doove

I do find it interesting that one of his rationales for maintaining slaves seemed to be that blacks were inferior and would be unable to take care of themselves should they be emancipated.

I also believe that, and current events bear that out. But on most other issues I consider myself a liberal.

Does that make me a racist liberal, or a realist?

Snide remarks are forgiven in advance...lol.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by trynagetlaid

I also believe that, and current events bear that out. But on most other issues I consider myself a liberal.

Does that make me a racist liberal, or a realist?

Snide remarks are forgiven in advance...lol.

Unable to take care of themselves? Or unable to overcome the oppressive racism that exists in this country?

Chicken/Egg.

[trynagetlaid]

I don't agree with oppressive racism. I've seen so many of them start school with other white kids, Asian kids, and Hispanics (some of whom come from homes where English isn't spoken). And due to 'no child left behind', the others are held back because the AA kids just don't get it. That leads to higher dropout rates, more teenage pregnancies, more juvenile crime, welfare babies, Section 8 housing, on and on, and the American people just can't support this any more. What is racist about not liking that?

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by trynagetlaid

I don't agree with oppressive racism. I've seen so many of them start school with other white kids, Asian kids, and Hispanics (some of whom come from homes where English isn't spoken). And due to 'no child left behind', the others are held back because the AA kids just don't get it. That leads to higher dropout rates, more teenage pregnancies, more juvenile crime, welfare babies, Section 8 housing, on and on, and the American people just can't support this any more. What is racist about not liking that?

Repeat after me: All races are equal. All races are equal. All races are equal. Apparently you didn't get the memo. You must repeat the racial mantra whenever, the subject of race comes up. Otherwise, you'll be excluded from the reindeer games! All nice people know that every race has exactly the same intelligence as every other race. If you believe otherwise, you're a monster and clearly need to be sent to a reeducation camp until you get your mind right.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by LovingKayla

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.

If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property - until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.

This is not directed at LK....but Can you right wing Tea Nuts understand WTF you read? What do you think he meant by this? You think he would approve how much we tax our citizens for military ? You think he would like the Fed Reserve?

[WTF]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

All nice people know that every race has exactly the same intelligence as every other race. If you believe otherwise, you're a monster and clearly need to be sent to a reeducation camp until you get your mind right.

There are dumbasses in every race...if you hired a white person over a black person just because you thought they would be smarter, you'd be one of those dumbasses.