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TheDon · 04-30-2013, 03:57 PM

Those are a lot of numbers to digest, brother. I'm a big fan of sports reference, btw.

Lets just focus on Johnny and Robert, here are the stats for their Heisman years:

RG3 2011 - 13 games, 699 rushing yds, 4293 passing yds, 8.59 yds/play, 384 yds/gm, 37 passing TD, 6 int,10 rushing td, 189 passing rating

Manziel 2012-12 games, 1181 rush yds, 3419. passing yd, 7.88 yds/play, 383 yds/gm, 24 passing TD, 8 int, 19 rushing td, 155 passing rating

Certain stats can be deceptive, obviously. They both put up crazy numbers.

I think comparing the schedules can tell what kind of season's they had as well:

Griffin: http://espn.go.com/college-football/...1/baylor-bears

Manziel: http://espn.go.com/college-football/...2/texas-aggies

If you look at Manziel, his first game was against one of the best defenses in the country (was also his first ever start), and that was one of his only two loses (the other one being to arguably the best defense). His team won every other game, and the loses they had, they still had a chance to win late.

If you look at Griffin's, he already had 2 years experience (not counting the year he was injured), and his team had three loses overall, including two blowouts.

Both guys had identical records against ranked opponents (3-2). Manziel also had the win over the #1 team in the nation, I would give him the nod as having the better year. Regardless, I think his next year will be better.

If you would want to argue Cam having the better year, I really wouldn't be against it. But I would still consider Manziel as being the better prospect coming into his first year to the NFL opposed to Cam when he came out.

Jusanotherdude · 04-30-2013, 06:36 PM

The issue for you then comes down to Wins and losses? Surely you jest..... that's not a valid argument for who is the better QB or QB prospect....

Underlying difference in Cam an Johnny.... 6'5" 245lbs (combine measured) to 6'1" 200lbs (program listed which you can shave at least an inch and probably 10lbs off of) .... difference from even the SEC and the NFL is that ALL of the LBs are as fast as you, and most of the D-linemen are too.... a monster like Cam can take those hits much easier than a guy like Manziel... just ask Vick....

Also, Manziel just had his LT go #2 in the draft, and his RT will go top 5 next year too (would have most likely gone top 10 this year) not to mention the other 2 maybe even 3 guys that will likely be in the NFL too. ... RG3 had Kendall Wright who is a decent WR at best.... Tebow had more wins in the SEC then Manziel.... does that mean anything? Not at all...

Facts are these.... Sumlin and Kingsbury had a great offense the SEC had not seen much of before, and an experienced O-line that kept their complrtely unknown QB extremely clean most of the year ..... don't get me wrong in all this, I'm not knocking the dude, I'm just saying let's not get carried away just yet..... we're Gonna find out a lot more about him next year, and We should at least have a little better idea of who and what he is or will be at the next level.

Wakeup · 04-30-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDon

Funny...

You didn't happen to follow that Robert Griffin kid last year did you? Or maybe that kid from Auburn a couple years ago?

Manziel is better than both of them.

Nope...I followed them both...how many NFL playoff games have they won?

TheDon · 04-30-2013, 07:14 PM

Griffin had better numbers passing wise, but he was in the big 12 which benefited his numbers, he was often in high scoring games opposed to Manziel, who was usually involved in grind out games in the SEC. Both guys put up impressive stats, so I just brought up what kind of season's they had, respectively. Right now, today, I don't think Manziel is better than Griffin, but I do think he had the better season, and that he was close to having as good of a season Cam did in 2010. And I believe this up-coming season he will have a chance to top what Cam did. And depending on how he does, it should tell us if he's going to be a better prospect.

Russell Wilson has a similar body type and had a productive, healthy season. I think Manziel will play smart like he did, and not how Vick has been doing the last few years.

TAMU was loaded last year, offensively, they're probably going to be again this year, he has great talent around him, I'm aware of that. But there are a lot of other talented teams out there as well, especially in the SEC. I'm not going to hold that against him.

Coaches were great, I agree. And I think they can actually do better, by playing faster. I think the SEC and the rest of the league are going to start to copy their style. What they did worked last year, and because they had/have the talent to make it work, I don't see why it won't be successful again this year.

TheDon · 04-30-2013, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakeuр

Nope...I followed them both...how many NFL playoff games have they won?

This is your response after 24 hours? Impressive.

Griffin made the playoffs, lost to a better QB and team in Russell Wilson and Seattle (who btw lost to Kaepernick). All three of these guys are built the same, Manziel is being built the same.

Cam (who's not as smart as the above mentioned QBs) had a fluke rookie season in which he put up great numbers, shitty first half of the season last year, but bounced back late. That said, he will most likely have a good season this year, the talent wasn't there for him last year, this year could be different.

How did the straight pocket-passing Brandon Weeden do?

TheDon · 04-30-2013, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakeuр

Why would anyone want Manziel??

Just so you remember, this is what you wrote, WU.

Tweet/Email every GM in the league, ask anyone who has every posted in this thread, ask anyone you know that follows the sport this question, and get back to me, curious to hear the responses.

Wakeup · 04-30-2013, 07:51 PM

So...how many NFL playoff games have they won?

My statistics are actual NFL results...of "outstanding" college performers underperforming in the NFL...nothing can be directly translated to the League...

I'd play the "wait and see" game before I threw out any claims about his "possible" NFL career...

gnadfly · 04-30-2013, 09:43 PM

I've written about this so many times...

The NFL is a pocket passer league. This year Superbowl was again won by a pocket passer. Its not that an athletic QB can't win the Superbowl (Staubach and S. Young), its that they still have to be a very good pocket passer.

The pistol offense has to be run by the so called "Athletic QB." Fine. What happens to these QBs is they get hurt. Witness RGIII a -guy who is a very good on the run and pocket QB. He may never be the same. We will see. Colin Kaepernick will get hurt. Vick will be demolished this year. I don't Johnny Football as the new prototype NFL QB.

Remember how the "wild cat" was going to transform the NFL? The Defensive Coordinators adjust. The Rules Committee adjusts. Although I see the Pistol doing better and lasting longer that the Wildcat, its going to leave some QBs with torn ACLs, concussions and for the shorter ones, making more turnovers.

TheDon · 04-30-2013, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakeuр

So...how many NFL playoff games have they won?

My statistics are actual NFL results...of "outstanding" college performers underperforming in the NFL...nothing can be directly translated to the League...

I'd play the "wait and see" game before I threw out any claims about his "possible" NFL career...

Young, mobile QBs? They've won a few now. Heisman winners? That's irrelevant, you're the only person in here even bringing them up. The reason Cam, Griffin, and Manziel have been brought up is because they're mobile, we've been comparing them as they are similar in the style they play, not because they won the award. Same with Wilson, Kaep, Mariota, Miller, etc.

Wakeup · 04-30-2013, 09:55 PM

My statement was based on quarterback Heisman winners and their decided lack of performance since they heyday of Roger Staubach and Jim Plunkett...that's why I emphasized that stat...

It's perfectly relevant...he's a Heisman winning quarterback...doesn't get more relevant than that...

Who knows, maybe he's the second coming that'll prove that stat wrong...until he does...

TheDon · 04-30-2013, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gnadfly

I've written about this so many times...

The NFL is a pocket passer league. This year Superbowl was again won by a pocket passer. Its not that an athletic QB can't win the Superbowl (Staubach and S. Young), its that they still have to be a very good pocket passer.

The pistol offense has to be run by the so called "Athletic QB." Fine. What happens to these QBs is they get hurt. Witness RGIII a -guy who is a very good on the run and pocket QB. He may never be the same. We will see. Colin Kaepernick will get hurt. Vick will be demolished this year. I don't Johnny Football as the new prototype NFL QB.

Remember how the "wild cat" was going to transform the NFL? The Defensive Coordinators adjust. The Rules Committee adjusts. Although I see the Pistol doing better and lasting longer that the Wildcat, its going to leave some QBs with torn ACLs, concussions and for the shorter ones, making more turnovers.

Yeah, it's a pocket passing league, right now....But when Everett Golson, Teddy Bridgewater, Braxton Miller, Marcus Mariota, and Johnny Manziel enter the league in a few years, to already go along with guys like Robert Griffin, Russell Wilson, Cam Newton, Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck, guess what, it's not going to be a pocket passing league anymore. More than half the starting QBs in the league will be mobile, athletic, and accurate passers.

One of the guys I mentioned got injured last season. Matt Schaub and Tom Brady have also gotten injured and missed games during the season. It's football, players get injured all the time, that's not going to change.

Comparing this to the wildcat is silly. You only had a couple of teams that were serious about it, and it wasn't changing the game, what we are seeing now is already changing the game. It's not an accident, the defense in the NFL is going to continue to be more and more non-existent as the rule changes are going to keep benefiting the offense, the offense has total control of the game, more and more teams are going to play fast and aggressive, and you're going to need a mobile QB to do that the best.

Just look at all the WRs and QBs in the league breaking new offensive records every year, it's not a hard pattern/trend to notice, and it's going to continue.

Why don't you go ahead and try to name some future Joe Flaccos/Drew Brees type of guys in college right now that will have a legitimate shot at starting in the NFL sometime soon? Matt Barkley, Tyler Wilson, and Landry Jones were arguably the best pocket passers in this past draft and none of them are going to have a chance to start this season. Unless you are talking about the next Peyton Manning, team's aren't going to be looking for these types of QBs anymore

TheDon · 04-30-2013, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wakeuр

My statement was based on quarterback Heisman winners and their decided lack of performance since they heyday of Roger Staubach and Jim Plunkett...that's why I emphasized that stat...

It's perfectly relevant...he's a Heisman winning quarterback...doesn't get more relevant than that...

Who knows, maybe he's the second coming that'll prove that stat wrong...until he does...

You realize you are comparing guys like Jason White, Matt Leinart, and Tebow to Robert Griffin, Cam Newton, and Johnny Manziel? Sure you see the difference, do you not? You're mentioning guys from 20+ years ago....Do you not see how the game has been changing just over the last 1-2 years?

Wakeup · 04-30-2013, 10:24 PM

Once again...for the learning impaired...how many NFL playoff games have they won?

The fact is, my statement stands...if one of these Lord and Almighty Manziels decide to break that nice stat...more power to them...again...until then...

TheDon · 04-30-2013, 10:49 PM

Jusanotherdude · 04-30-2013, 11:47 PM

Bringing Landry Jones and Barkley into the mix is a joke at this point...... one has nothing to do with the other...... bad QB class after one of the best ones in years...... it happens.... how many WRs, DB's went in the first round this year as opposed to last? Comparing one to the other directly is ludicrous......

Gnad is right... pocket passers will never go out of "style" if you will..... accuracy will ALWAYS trump mobility at the highest level.... getting the ball into playmakers hands in the open field is the priority.... it's far easier to replace WRs, TEs and RBs upon injuries than QBs..... constant and consistant hits on these smaller guys at the NFL level WILL lead shorter career spans, and less games per season. Neither of which are acceptable in the eyes of GMs and coaches.... you don't take your high end sports cars off roading..... same concept here..... outside of the pocket these investments are at a much higher risk. You Can't win games for your team while in the training room or under the knife. Cam gets away with it for now being a huge mammal and being young. Vick did it for his first few years by being faster than everyone on the field.... and he's bigger and faster than the guys you are referring to Don..... guess how many years he played in all 16games in the 11 he's been in the NFL? Once. How many times has Brady, Flacco, and the Manning's? I think between just those 4 off the top of my head they have 2 seasons where they did not play in all 16 (if I'm not mistaken)....