Please list/mention Obama's Accomplishments

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Some people just don't know when they're beat.
LOL, no but I know when YOU are. It's easy to see when I make a dozen or more points and you try to single out one and beat it to death while ignoring the others.

Again, if you want to compare recidivism rates I am happy to do that for you.

Dude you totally missed the point if you think this had ANYTHING to do with recidivism. Then again, I don't think you're that slow, no, it's more in line with what's typical in debates these days. Try to attack one point, ridicule the messenger and hope that this will discredit the other points brought up and made.
Honestly, I don't even know what you're attempting to debate here. I already clearly stated more than once that I agree that the crimes they do commit are something we shouldn't be paying for, but it also stands to reason that we shouldn't have to pay for ANY crime committed by ANY culture living within our society. If you want to use crime as an indicator as to who should stay and who should go, then you're going to be throwing out the wrong folks, citizens or not.


My points in this entire discussion is a. Illegals are not committing any more crime than anyone else,
No matter how many times you tell that lie, it's still a lie. So, my not so quick witted friend, there are areas in central and southeast Austin where almost half the burglary of vehicles and habitations are carried out by Illegal Aliens. So yes, I will keep saying what I want and I what I know to be TRUE and no matter how you twist it or try to turn it into a NATIONAL statistical debate, the facts are the facts.

and b. the amount of crime they are committing is not disproportionate to their population.
Already answered above
Honestly, I don't understand your argument at all. Would you be okay with the crime these folks are committing if we made them citizens? There's really no difference to me whether they are here legally or not.
Wow, can you really be that naive??!! They wouldn't be here at ALL except for the fact that they illegally entered our country. Now, I know it's hard but try to follow this concept. That means that the money that is spent on them is an ADDITIONAL burden on our Government. Whether it's SSI benefits we're paying them, or dealing with the costs associated when they commit crime, or treating them in our emergency rooms, it's MONEY WE WOULD NOT HAVE TO SPEND IF THEY WEREN'T HERE!!
A criminal is a criminal and the only real difference between someone here illegally and myself is nothing more than a few hundred dollars in fees and a passport. I'm not going to debate some self-righteous racially charged argument that I somehow *deserve* to be here more than them by nothing more than the dumb luck of my parents fucking and giving birth within some imaginary line.

Ahh, there it is. Americans that don't approve of people entering our country illegally, especially the percentage of illegals that come here and then commit crimes, well, we simply must be "Racist".
When the arguments of liberals fail then throw out the "racist" card.
Whatever you say F-Sharp. I could point out many things about my personal life to dispute that "race" has anything to do with this argument but it's not even worth my time. You've shown your colors with that stupid remark.

Honestly, based on your numbers of 96,000 individuals that's not even one percent of their total numbers. Using crime as an argument for debate in immigration is just stupid. When you step back and look at the big picture, it's clear these folks are not criminals, regardless of what your "APD detectives" are telling you.

I say if you don't want illegals here than you have one choice: make the one's already here citizens and take away the incentive for any new ones to come here. Neither of which is going to reduce crime, and in fact the latter will ultimately create more crime by dislocating people who have no where else to go.

Again, the typical liberal argument. It's not the people's fault, it's their (take your pick from 100 liberal arguments) environment, lack of opportunity, etc etc etc.....the idea of personal responsibility completely escapes you. There are many, MANY people who remain in their own country if they cannot move to another country LEGALLY. They may be poor but they make the most out of it. I've personally met many people like this during my lifetime. I have relatives of foreign citizenship who would love to live here but they know that the legal process takes up to 7 years for them. They don't decide to simply ignore the law and pack up and come here illegally. They wouldn't dream of setting that example for their kids. They're proud of their heritage and don't mind remaining in their home country if that is what is meant to be. They live productive lives there, they don't commit crimes and they're just fine with it. So please stop all that bleeding heart crap with me. I have family members by marriage who live as poor and under conditions that aren't any better than many from Mexico who simply feel it's their right to walk across our border, take advantage of our system and set up shop despite the fact that they are violating the law. Oh and guess what? Even though my relatives live 6000+ miles away, they think it may benefit their children to learn english in addition to their home country's language. They certainly wouldn't come here and expect for every government and social service to be made available to them in their own language.

By the way, ever hear of Operation Wetback (not a racist term on my part it was the name of the operation back then)? We did round up and deport thousands of illegals in the 1950's and once the U.S. Government began the process, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Illegals left the country on their own. So please, don't tell me it doesn't work. We didn't just drop them on the border between Texas and Mexico, they were taken deep inside Mexico before being released.
Truly, if liberals like you would spend half the time coming up with solutions of what CAN be done instead of making excuses why it CAN'T be done we'd get so much more accomplished in our country.

Yeah, I'm a real riot.

At this point, I don't know what you are. *Sigh*

[F-Sharp]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

It's easy to see when I make a dozen or more points and you try to single out one and beat it to death while ignoring the others.

Yeah, a dozen or more points full of nothing more than conjecture and unfounded opinion. My favorite so far is the mysterious APD Detective. I have a crazy uncle that says all crime is committed by illegals, should I believe him too? I only deal in facts. Besides that, your so-called "points" are fluid and change every time that point is proven wrong. No one can even keep up with them!

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

No matter how many times you tell that lie, it's still a lie. So, my not so quick witted friend, there are areas in central and southeast Austin where almost half the burglary of vehicles and habitations are carried out by Illegal Aliens. So yes, I will keep saying what I want and I what I know to be TRUE and no matter how you twist it or try to turn it into a NATIONAL statistical debate, the facts are the facts.

So now you've backpeddled from saying:

"They commit crimes "triple their share" when compared to the overall Hispanic population in the U.S." http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?...81#post1538781

to:

"...HALF of these crimes, including burglary of vehicle, burglary of habitation, burglary of business, etc are committed by illegal immigrants in our city."

(http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?...5#post1535005)

And now to "areas in central and southeast Austin"? Seriously D, what the hell are we really talking about? Just can't make up your mind? Are you now talking about one fucking street or apartment complex on the eastside? And since when did something *you* say on an internet forum without one single source of data besides some mysterious APD detective become considered "facts"?

I guess you really want to compare apples to oranges. Here's what we know for certain:

4/10ths of one percent of ALL illegal aliens in this country are being arrested and convicted for commiting crimes. This comes from YOUR fucking link. The only one lying here is you. Here's some more breakdowns for you based on some Wikipedia stats:

Total prison population 2009: 2,096,300

Total incarcerated whites: 693,800 - Represents 28% of the prison population and 2/10ths of one percent of the entire U.S. population and 3/10ths of one percent of their make-up within the U.S.

Total incarcerated blacks 2009: 841,000 - Represents 40% of the prison population, 2.7/10ths of one percent of the entire U.S. population, and 2% of their make-up within the U.S.

Total incarcerated hispanics 2009: 442,000 - Represents 21% of the prison population, 1.4/10ths of one percent of the entire U.S. poplulation and 8.7/10ths of one percents of their make-up within the U.S.

Total incarcerated illegal aliens per your statistics in 2003: 95,817 - Represents 6% of the prison population in 2003, which was
1,470,045 according to the link provided, 3.5/100ths of one percent of the entire United States population based in 290,000,000 in 2003, and 7/10ths of one percent or 4/10ths of one percent of their make-up within the U.S. if you believe it's either 12 million or 20 million respectively.

And remember that 40% per your link of all illegal aliens locked up in Federal prison are there for immigration related offenses, not property and theft crimes. I'm sure that's a far cry from white tax dodgers, drug king pins and racketeering convicts housed with them.

Lowest percentage of prison make-up within ALL these groups: ILLEGAL ALIENS @ 6% with 40% of all illegal Federal inmates being locked up specifically for immigration offenses, ie. not property crimes, burglary, blah blah blah.

Lowest percentage of inmates when compared to their total U.S. population? That's right, you guessed it...ILLEGAL ALIENS, and it's not even close at 3.5/100ths of one percent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarce..._United_States
http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004986.html

Now, shut the fuck up, be a man, and admit you are completely wrong and don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

Yeah, a dozen or more points full of nothing more than conjecture and unfounded opinion. My favorite so far is the mysterious APD Detective. I have a crazy uncle that says all crime is committed by illegals, should I believe him too? I only deal in facts. Besides that, your so-called "points" are fluid and change every time that point is proven wrong. No one can even keep up with them!

Well let's start addressing these issues since you've now shown yourself to be a downright LIAR by misquoting me repeatedly.



So now you've backpeddled from saying:

"They commit crimes "triple their share" when compared to the overall Hispanic population in the U.S." http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?...81#post1538781

to:

"...HALF of these crimes, including burglary of vehicle, burglary of habitation, burglary of business, etc are committed by illegal immigrants in our city."

This is what you quoted me as saying. You conveniently only used HALF of the statement to make it appear as if I'm "backpeddling".

Here's my entire statement:

. "You'll quickly discover that depending on the location and type of crime, many times over HALF of these crimes, including burglary of vehicle, burglary of habitation, burglary of business, etc are committed by illegal immigrants in our city. You don't think THAT'S a problem?"

So, that's what I wrote. Are you really that ignorant that you couldn't read the part that says "depending on the location and the type of crime"
No, I don't think that was ignorance on your part, instead it was a calculated effort to misquote me by hacking off part of my statement and then try to make it look like I'm contradicting myself. That makes you a scumbag, plain and simple!
I'm generally up to a lively debate and I totally understand when things get a little bit heated but you telling me to "shut the fuck up" and then purposely misquoting me not once but several times has crossed the line with me. I'm not your kid so I doubt I'll run off and stand in a corner because "Dad" says for me to shut the fuck up. Dude, I seriously hope you can back that mouth of yours up with more than typing.

(http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?p=1535005#post1 535005)

And now to "areas in central and southeast Austin"? Seriously D, what the hell are we really talking about? Just can't make up your mind? Are you now talking about one fucking street or apartment complex on the eastside? And since when did something *you* say on an internet forum without one single source of data besides some mysterious APD detective become considered "facts"?

Read the above and maybe you'll get a clue. We've addressed how you purposely misquoted me when I said the same thing all along when it comes to crimes committed in certain parts of Austin by illegals.

I guess you really want to compare apples to oranges. Here's what we know for certain:

4/10ths of one percent of ALL illegal aliens in this country are being arrested and convicted for commiting crimes. This comes from YOUR fucking link. The only one lying here is you. Here's some more breakdowns for you based on some Wikipedia stats:

Total prison population 2009: 2,096,300

Total incarcerated whites: 693,800 - Represents 28% of the prison population and 2/10ths of one percent of the entire U.S. population and 3/10ths of one percent of their make-up within the U.S.

Total incarcerated blacks 2009: 841,000 - Represents 40% of the prison population, 2.7/10ths of one percent of the entire U.S. population, and 2% of their make-up within the U.S.

Total incarcerated hispanics 2009: 442,000 - Represents 21% of the prison population, 1.4/10ths of one percent of the entire U.S. poplulation and 8.7/10ths of one percents of their make-up within the U.S.

Total incarcerated illegal aliens per your statistics in 2003: 95,817 - Represents 6% of the prison population in 2003, which was
1,470,045 according to the link provided, 3.5/100ths of one percent of the entire United States population based in 290,000,000 in 2003, and 7/10ths of one percent or 4/10ths of one percent of their make-up within the U.S. if you believe it's either 12 million or 20 million respectively.

And remember that 40% per your link of all illegal aliens locked up in Federal prison are there for immigration related offenses, not property and theft crimes. I'm sure that's a far cry from white tax dodgers, drug king pins and racketeering convicts housed with them.

Lowest percentage of prison make-up within ALL these groups: ILLEGAL ALIENS @ 6% with 40% of all illegal Federal inmates being locked up specifically for immigration offenses, ie. not property crimes, burglary, blah blah blah.

The Arizona Department of Corrections reported in 2010 that illegal immigrants are over-represented in the state's prison population. In June 2010, illegal immigrants represented 14.8 percent of Arizona state prisoners, but accounted for 7 percent of the state's overall population according to the Department of Homeland Security. In addition, the data showed that the undocumented accounted for 40% of all the prisoners serving time in Arizona state prisons for kidnapping; 24% of those serving time for drug charges; and 13 percent of those serving time for murder.[112]
A US Justice Department report from 2009 indicated that one of the largest street gangs in the United States, Los Angeles-based 18th Street gang, has a membership of some 30,000 to 50,000 with 80% of them being illegal aliens from Mexico and Central America. Active in 44 cities in 20 states, its main source of income is street-level distribution of cocaine and marijuana and, to a lesser extent, heroin and methamphetamine. Gang members also commit assault, auto theft, carjacking, drive-by shootings, extortion, homicide, identification fraud, and robbery.[113]
Another prominent street gang, Mara Salvatrucha, also known as MS 13, with a membership of some 8,000 to 10,000 members in the US, is estimated to be predominantly composed of illegal immigrants (with some reporting up to 90%).[114][115] MS-13 members smuggle illicit drugs, primarily powder cocaine and marijuana, into the US and transport and distribute the drugs throughout the country. Some members also are involved in alien smuggling, assault, drive-by shootings, homicide, identity theft, prostitution operations, robbery, and weapons trafficking.[113] With over 3,000 members in Northern Virginia alone making it the largest gang in the region,[116] MS-13 has been targeted by the Northern Virginia Regional Gang Task Force which reports that 40% of arrests from 2003-2008 were of illegal aliens.[115][117] It is also reported that 71% of the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement(ICE) gang arrestees under "Operation Community Shield" in Northern Virginia from February 2005 to September 2007, were of EWI "Enter Without Inspection" status

Read the underline passage above a few times please. Then tell me that illegals don't commit crimes disproportionately in certain areas. Keep em coming F-Sharp, the more you try to insult me and downplay the numbers the more your downright ignorance is shining through.
You think Arizona is isolated in this? Look at the number of GANG MEMBERS that are illegals in California alone. Like I tried to explain to you NUMEROUS times, many of the crimes these guys commit are never solved and many times illegals leave the country after committing crimes in the U.S., therefor never entering the U.S. Prison system and are therefor not taken into account in your twisted little statistical game you're trying to play. Do you even KNOW what Class offense a Burglary of a Vehicle is in Texas? It's a Class A misdemeanor meaning even IF the illegal was caught, he wouldn't go to State Prison for that Offense. So before you start touting how the Arizona numbers don't mention those types of crimes, that's because many like Burglary of Vehicle are not felonies.
But the facts show that they DO commit some types of crimes disproportionately as the numbers above show and it's certainly NOT limited to Kidnapping.

The above says it all, don't you think??!!!!

And if that's not good enough for you, let's just put ONE human face to this. In March 2010, an illegal immigrant killed Arizona rancher Rob Krentz.
Krentz had previously reported that illegal immigrants had done over $8 million dollars in damage to his ranching operations during a five-year period, and in the wake of his murder, interviews with his family and friends focused on similar crimes and break-ins committed by immigrants.

Now something tells me if you worked hard all your life to build up a working ranch, and illegals continued to trample all over your property, killing your livestock, leaving TONS of trash and human waste on your property, cutting and tearing down your fences and committed $8,000,000 in damage to YOUR ranching operation, you wouldn't be spouting this bull crap on here.

Lowest percentage of inmates when compared to their total U.S. population? That's right, you guessed it...ILLEGAL ALIENS, and it's not even close at 3.5/100ths of one percent.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarce..._United_States
http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0004986.html

Here comes the numbers game again. I'm so absolutely tired of going back and forth with the numbers on you. It's obvious to anyone reading these posts that you are trying to break down the numbers without attaching a dollar value to them. In every statistic I provided I attached a cost associated with them. If you want any credibility in this debate, attack the costs. Attack what it costs the U.S. Government to house 260,000+ illegals annually. Go back AGAIN if you still don't understand why that number is correct and relevant!
Attack what it costs the American victims along with state and local governments when it comes to the 700,000 crimes per year that are committed by illegal aliens in the United States.
Attack the amount of drugs being smuggled in by illegal aliens into this country.
Attack the costs associated with providing SSI benefits to Illegal Aliens.
Attack the costs associated when a large number fail to carry insurance and you're involved in a wreck with them.
Attack the costs when they are treated for free in Emergency Rooms around the country. For that matter, since you admitted being from California, why don't you tell us how many Hospitals in California had to SHUT DOWN because of treatment costs not reimbursed to them? Come on now, don't be shy F-Sharp, I've got the numbers if you don't.


Now, shut the fuck up, be a man, and admit you are completely wrong and don't have a clue what the hell you're talking about.

LOL, anytime you'd like to make that last statement to me in person, just let me know the time and place.

[WyldemanATX]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

LOL, anytime you'd like to make that last statement to me in person, just let me know the time and place.

If he lets you know a time and place let me know I don't want to miss that. My money is on DTorrchia.

[Yssup Rider]

Sure you would. Sounds like the basis for a spirited, intellectual exchange. You might learn something.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

Sure you would. Sounds like the basis for a spirited, intellectual exchange. You might learn something.

Yssup, with all due respect. I've had spirited debates with Whispers and others on here. Even if we disagree it rarely turns into a cussing exchange. But do you consider someone telling another poster to "shut the fuck up" to be a spirited, intellectual exchange?

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

Yssup, with all due respect. I've had spirited debates with Whispers and others on here. Even if we disagree it rarely turns into a cussing exchange. But do you consider someone telling another poster to "shut the fuck up" to be a spirited, intellectual exchange?

No I don't. I consider it TREASON!

Seriously, as much as the old board's "polite and civil" mantra got on my nerves, I do believe that we should speak as respectfully as possible to each other. STFU is definitely crossing the line, in my opinion, and from experience, is often a pointable offense.

Then again, two guys threatening to duke it out because of things said on a Hooker board is flat out stupid and merits both sarcastic responses as well as a dousing with a garden hose. The guy in the back ground egging them on is the one who needs to be taken off the playground. That's who I was addressing; the cheering section, not the combatants. (F-Sharp was outta line...probably needs to chill a little, which is sound advice coming from me!)

Now shut the ... er, just kidding!

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

No I don't. I consider it TREASON!

Seriously, as much as the old board's "polite and civil" mantra got on my nerves, I do believe that we should speak as respectfully as possible to each other. STFU is definitely crossing the line, in my opinion, and from experience, is often a pointable offense.

Then again, two guys threatening to duke it out because of things said on a Hooker board is flat out stupid and merits both sarcastic responses as well as a dousing with a garden hose. The guy in the back ground egging them on is the one who needs to be taken off the playground. That's who I was addressing; the cheering section, not the combatants. (F-Sharp was outta line...probably needs to chill a little, which is sound advice coming from me!)

Now shut the ... er, just kidding!

LOL, I get your point but for the record, no one has threatened to "duke it out". I simply offered him the opportunity to make his non-polite statement to me in person. You see, I've found that oftentimes, many of the, let's call them "keyboard commando's", tend to take a politer tone when speaking to someone in person. They tend to not be so quick to throw insults around compared to the relative safety that hiding behind their keyboard brings. The people I meet in person oftentimes don't have the same persona that they exhibit on the internet.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

LOL, I get your point but for the record, no one has threatened to "duke it out". I simply offered him the opportunity to make his non-polite statement to me in person. You see, I've found that oftentimes, many of the, let's call them "keyboard commando's", tend to take a politer tone when speaking to someone in person. They tend to not be so quick to throw insults around compared to the relative safety that hiding behind their keyboard brings. The people I meet in person oftentimes don't have the same persona that they exhibit on the internet.

Got cha... again, my comment was directed to the "OTHER" guy; you know, the Wild and Crazy dude who wants to be there for that confrontation and put his money on you. Probably should have quoted it and replied in blue or something.

Keyboard commandos aside, there are folks who hide behind the guns, knives and gold chains they carry with them in public and tend to be more abrasive and more easily goaded into physical behavior in public than they are when using a spell check.

That said, I enjoy reading your perspective on this stuff, as I do F-Sharp's.

So when you DO decide to beat the shit out of each other ...

Just sayin...

[Austinfunandfit]

Amazed at the ignorance of people and their inability to discern truth. Americans are more loyal to leaders than they are issues.

[DTorrchia]

Originally Posted by Austinfunandfit

Amazed at the ignorance of people and their inability to discern truth. Americans are more loyal to leaders than they are issues.

We've thrown that issue around here before. The problem is "truth" is such a vague concept these days. None of our leaders are interested in the truth, the media certainly isn't truthful or unbiased, so I'm not sure if it's "ignorance" or the inability for people to find the truth these days. When almost every information medium is biased these days, toward one side or the other, how does the average American make informed decisions on the issues you mention?

[F-Sharp]

Aww, what's the matter D? You really such a sore loser? Let's see, you've accused me of misquoting you here, accused me of lying here, and flat out called me a liar here and now you've got your panties all in a bunch for a "shut the fuck up"? What the hell do you expect? Get over yourself internet tough guy and stop deflecting from the real debate here.

No one's misquoted you and nothing you've stated has even been taken out of context by me. Lucky for you, your posts are right here for everyone to see for themselves. Here they are again in case you missed it the last time, and I'm even adding the entire paragraph to save myself the problem of defending myself from your accusations that I've misquoted you and starting in with the "liar" talk again.

"What part of those statistics DON'T you understand F-Sharp. They commit crimes "triple their share" when compared to the overall Hispanic population in the U.S."

http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?...81#post1538781

"Really? Tell you what, put in a FOIA request to Austin PD asking them to release stats on how many crimes in Austin are committed annually by illegal immigrants. Care to know what you'll get? A refusal. That's right, an outright refusal to comply with the FOIA. Why? Because the Federal Government tells them not to release that info. Then approach any Austin PD Detective that works property crimes and ask them how many of the property crimes in Austin are committed by illegal aliens. You'll quickly discover that depending on the location and type of crime, many times over HALF of these crimes, including burglary of vehicle, burglary of habitation, burglary of business, etc are committed by illegal immigrants in our city."

http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?...post1535005%29


As I've stated a few times before, your argument keeps changing. Every single time I prove you wrong, you change your argument just enough to not look like a complete ass and make me start all over again. It's seriously getting old, but I can play this game with you from now until the end of time. Case in point, you've now done it again. Let's see...you've now gone from the overall hispanic population, to Austin, to parts of Austin, and now you've managed to skip all the way back to Arizona and Los Angeles gangs.

Anyone else see a pattern here? I mean seriously D, there's nothing wrong with being wrong now and again and there's no reason to go changing your argument so dramatically as to try and cover up that fact. Just consider it a learning experience and move on.

As for Arizona all I can say is well, DUH! Let's see, border state trying desperately to convince everyone of the illegal alien boogeyman in an effort to support a racist political agenda? No one here is doubting that you're going to see some skewed figures there, especially given that 80% of ALL alien arrests take place in California, Arizona, and Texas.

Back in 2004 before all this bullshit started that 14.8% figure you gave was only 11%. You also have to consider that illegals have left Arizona en masse since that time. In fact, their numbers went from 560,000 to about 375,000 in just the last three years. It's pretty easy to see how a few hundred thousand people migrating out of that place is going to skew numbers like you've posted. Those folks currently doing time in Arizona prisons didn't just show up there recently. But how is that relavent to the discussion? Who the fuck cares, no one here ever doubted or questioned it.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...#ixzz1VQdDI5op

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/...n6442729.shtml

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/bord...450866afd.html

As for gangs, there's about 900,000 estimated gang members nationwide. 18th Street and MS13 are indeed very well-know gangs in my home state consisting mostly of illegals. Anyone in my old neighborhood knows them well. So, their membership according to your post consists of "30,000 - 50,000", so let's just call it 40,000. And again, according to your link 80% of them are estimated to be illegals.

40,000 * .8 = 32000

as for MS13, 8000 - 10000, let's call it 9000 @ 90% guesstimate illegal membership.

9000 * .9 = 8100

32000 + 8100 = 40100

40100/900000 = 4.4%

Considering those two are by far the largest known and the rest of the numbers are negligible, it's fair to say that the estimated gang membership in the U.S. that are illegals is probably around 5% or so. Now take that same number and divide it by 12 million, you get 3/10ths of one percent of ALL illegal aliens in the U.S. are gang members. Hell, you can even double that number and you're still only slightly better than 1/2 of one percent...far less than that of course if illegals are 20 million strong, instead of the 12 million I am calculating.

Oh my, now I'm scared. The illegal alien boogeyman is really out of the bag! Or as you so proudly stated:

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

The above says it all, don't you think??!!!!"

As for your one face Mr. Rob Krentz, Krentz's ranch was in Douglas, AZ right on the border at Aqua Preita on hwy 191...

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Dougla...ed=0CCcQ8gEwAQ

A very well-known and well-used route for drug traffic. The fact is that Mr. Krentz was not killed by "illegal aliens", he was killed by drug mules who were without a doubt associated with a Mexican cartel. Mr. Krentz no doubt got between them and their delivery point and was killed because of it.

This is the same bullshit, completely false argument Arizona tried to make when they started in with this whole illegal alien boogeyman. I stated once before and I will state it again here for the record, you've got drug trafficking criminals so mixed up with illegal aliens that you can't even tell the difference any more. The person or person's responsible for killing Krentz had absolutely nothing to do with 12-20 million illegal aliens currently in this country, and that goes for the rest of the crime taking place along our borders. It's a CRIME problem and no amount of cracking down on "illegals" is ever going to make a difference in that particular situation because they have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Trying to compare border drug traffickers to illegal aliens is about as stupid as saying all Italians are in the mafia and all Republicans are racist.

I'm suprised you have yet to bring up the imaginary headless bodies that idiot Brewer tried so hard to convince gulliables like you were were just showing up in the desert at alarming rates. Yeah, it was complete bullshit, along with the many other tall tales you so passionately want to believe...read this article carefully.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...070902342.html

Finally, as for attaching numbers to this issue. I did that way back in post #106

http://www.eccie.net/showthread.php?...dy#post1534454

There you'll find three separate studies that conclude that illegal aliens are contributing more to our tax base than they are using.

Originally Posted by DTorrchia

LOL, anytime you'd like to make that last statement to me in person, just let me know the time and place.

Oh stop being such a girl and suck it up. As I stated, consider losing a debate to me time and time again nothing more than a learning experience. But if you insist, I'll be at Hardtails next Thursday night. I'll be the tall guy at the bar out back wearing a leather vest, with an upside-down cross and a half dozen teardrops tattooed below my left eye, pussy.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by F-Sharp

I'll be the tall guy at the bar out back wearing a leather vest, with an upside-down cross and a half dozen teardrops tattooed below my left eye, pussy.

I don't care who you are, that's FUNNY!

[Doctor Rockso]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

I don't care who you are, that's FUNNY!

Obama is one clown who isn't funny!

YYYYY Y Y YYYYYYYYYYY YYYYYYYYYEAH

[Yssup Rider]

Yeah but he isn't getting banned anytime soon, cream pie!