7 reasons why Ronald Reagan was the worst President of our lifetime

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Still waiting for a reply:

www.eccie.net/showpost.php?p=2003237&postcou nt=199

he must be busy with the ladies.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

he must be busy with the ladies.

No, I have replied twice.

He just didn't like the answer.

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

are you always this flippant? Yes



I'm not aware of any reports that the U.S was getting reimbursed by its participating allies for support costs. Check out the link I B supplied stating that the scientific community said he did

If you can show that link. I'll shut up about this and say Obama pulled a Reagan.

You are correct...he did not get the Iranians to fund the Libya crap. He should have and then you righties would have nothing to bitch about, hell get Ollie North to divert any profits from the sale to GM!

[Munchmasterman]

[quote=I B Hankering;2002957]Defense Budget (in billions)
1975 $293.3 Ford (fall of Saigon on 30 April)
1976 $283.8 Ford
1977 $286.2 Carter
1978 $286.5 Carter
1979 $295.6 Carter (the Iran Hostage Crisis begins November 4)
1980 $303.4 Carter (failed Operation Eagle Claw: April 24-25)
1981 $317.4 Reagan Wrong.

The Marines piloting the RH-53D Sea Stallions were not fully integrated and trained to operate with Delta Force, but they were employed because no Army pilots were trained to operate the Sea Stallions - the only helicopter with the range to accomplish the mission (Bowden's Guests of the Ayatollah).There were over 100 Air Force pilots that were qualified in the HH-53B/C, The "Jolly Green Giants".

Training operations during the Carter years were seriously curtailed because of budgetary constraints, and equipment deadline rates soared because there was no money for repair parts. I was there; I remember it well. So was I. 335th Assault Helicopter, The "Cowboys" at Ft. Riley until Oct. 77. We had one hangar queen that was used as a FOD example. We never had more than a couple of birds on the deadline at once and they were there only a few days. We trained a lot due to our support of different units whose aviation units were assigned to different posts. [/quote]

Like I said, Carter increased defense spending each year.

1968 $449.3
1969 438.1
1970 406.3
1971 370.6
1972 343.8
1973 313.3
1974 299.7
1975 293.3
1976 283.8
1977 286.2 Ford The 1977 fiscal year starts in Oct. 1976
1978 286.5 Carter
1979 $295.6 Carter
1980 303.4 Carter
1981 317.4 Carter The 1981 fiscal year starts in Oct. 1980

This failure was caused by a lack of the correct training and the failure to have enough rehearsals


"A six-member commission was appointed by the JCS to study the operation. Headed by Adm James L. Holloway III, the panel included Gen LeRoy Manor, who commanded the Son Tay raid, November 21, 1970 in Vietnam to rescue prisoners. One issue investigated was selection of aircrew. Navy and Marine pilots with little experience in long-range overland navigation or refueling from C-130s were selected though more than a hundred qualified Air Force H-53 pilots were available. Another issue was the lack of a comprehensive readiness evaluation and mission rehearsal program. From the beginning, training was not conducted in a truly joint manner; it was compartmented and held at scattered locations throughout the US. The limited rehearsals that were conducted assessed only portions of the total mission. Also at issue was the number of helicopters used. The commission concluded that at least ten and perhaps as many as twelve helicopters should have been launched to guarantee the minimum of six required for completion of the mission. The plan was also criticized for using the "hopscotch" method of ground refueling instead of air refueling as was used for the Son Tay raid. By air refueling en route, the commission thought the entire Desert One scenario could have been avoided."

"This accusation of inadequate pilot motivation is echoed by the on-scene air commander Colonel James Kyle who blames the pilot of Helo Number Five for aborting the mission."

Kyle, Col. (Ret.) James H., and John Robert Eidson. The Guts to Try: The Untold Story of the Iran Hostage Rescue Mission By the On-Scene Desert Commander, (New York: Orion Books, 1990).

"Beckwith was reputed to have blamed the pilots for the failure of the mission. His account, admittedly riddled with the fallible wisdom of perfect hindsight, describes the mental shakiness he had observed in some of the pilots. Furthermore, when a helicopter had collided with a C-130 fixed-wing plane and exploded during the withdrawal from the scene (after the mission had been aborted), the helicopter pilots had abandoned their helicopters and left the aircraft there (containing money, maps, documents and so on) without taking time to destroy their aircraft and hence maintain security. Beckwith had called them "cowards"."

Beckwith, Colonel (Ret.) Charlie, and Donald Knox, Delta Force (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1983).


Like I said before.

Other than being President, Carter was not to blame.

[WTF]

I think I will go with Munch's version!

Sounds a hell of alot more reasonable.

[dilbert firestorm]

so, the pilots not having the required delta force training hogwash?

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

I have to disagree. The planners (who you blame) came up with a plan involving gunships, a number of helicopters, a CAP, and a large number of fighting men. The predicted over 1,000 Iranian deaths and the loss of maybe half the hostages.

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Carter didn't want to kill that many Iranians so he asked the planners how many helicopters did they need, minimum, to pull of the mission. He was told that they needed at least 10, eight for the mission and two backups. Carter said they would use eight only (micromanaging the professionals). How about a link for this? Don't bother looking. I provided a link showing you to be wrong further down. The helicopters did not have the proper filter screens since they had not been delivered to the ship and the intakes were fouled with sand. The buck stops in the Oval Office. Carter micromanaged the professionals and the logistics were not there to support the people on the ground or the ship.Or this? The military had been plagues with budget cut after budget cut under Carter. You are wrong right here. The defense budget went up every year under Carter.
That didn't take long, did it? At least 2 in this one post.
I.B. already posted numbers proving me right. Here is the link.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0904490.html

They were not up to speed and Carter didn't have the stomach for the fight. Don't worry though, Warren Christopher was the man who said the students would respect our embassy and he got promoted under Bill Clinton.

"Problems with the helicopters were not anticipated, although Colonel Beckwith, the commander of the Delta Force, had asked that ten instead of eight helicopters be put at his disposal. The estimate was that six was the minimum number required to conduct the operation, but the Navy had informed him that eight was the maximum number that could be put in the hangar of the Nimitz without taking away other aircraft that were normally stationed there. However, the Holloway Commission later concluded that in a situation of non-war, which was the case, twelve helicopters could have been used, and that no factors, either operational or logistical, would have prevented the launching of eleven helicopters from the Nimitz."

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_military_history/v067/67.1cogan.html

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Why are you making fun of the late Don Knotts. He was a World War II veteran and I expect a little bit more respect for Don Knotts. Barney Fife was a character he played and recieved five Emmy nominations for.

I didn't. You are wrong again if you were referring to me. If Knott, sorry about that.

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

Funny, I also have a Maytag repairman job and spend a lot of time researching things. You want links, you got em.

Originally Posted by JD Barleycorn

If I got some factually wrong then point it out with supporting evidence. Despite your claims you haven't done that. Look at the posts above. It should be easy for you to give examples of me saying you are wrong and not having evidence to back my claim up. You claim you have the time, prove me wrong. It feels great when you catch somebody playing fast and loose with the truth. It makes it all worth while. Believe me, I know.

Research? You can't prove it by the links you post. I have pointed it out. With a link every time. In these three posts, you have not provided any links or an example of me incorrectly catching you in a factual error. If I want links it looks like I have to post them myself.

If you want, I can go through my posting summaries and find every one that has a link to you being factually wrong. I'll keep track and post them all each time I catch you.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

The Marines piloting the RH-53D Sea Stallions were not fully integrated and trained to operate with Delta Force, but they were employed because no Army pilots were trained to operate the Sea Stallions - the only helicopter with the range to accomplish the mission (Bowden's Guests of the Ayatollah).There were over 100 Air Force pilots that were qualified in the HH-53B/C, The "Jolly Green Giants".

Training operations during the Carter years were seriously curtailed because of budgetary constraints, and equipment deadline rates soared because there was no money for repair parts. I was there; I remember it well. So was I. 335th Assault Helicopter, The "Cowboys" at Ft. Riley until Oct. 77. We had one hangar queen that was used as a FOD example. We never had more than a couple of birds on the deadline at once and they were there only a few days. We trained a lot due to our support of different units whose aviation units were assigned to different posts. [/quote]

Like I said, Carter increased defense spending each year.

1968 $449.3
1969 438.1
1970 406.3
1971 370.6
1972 343.8
1973 313.3
1974 299.7
1975 293.3
1976 283.8
1977 286.2 Ford The 1977 fiscal year starts in Oct. 1976
1978 286.5 Carter
1979 $295.6 Carter
1980 303.4 Carter
1981 317.4 Carter The 1981 fiscal year starts in Oct. 1980

This failure was caused by a lack of the correct training and the failure to have enough rehearsals


"A six-member commission was appointed by the JCS to study the operation. Headed by Adm James L. Holloway III, the panel included Gen LeRoy Manor, who commanded the Son Tay raid, November 21, 1970 in Vietnam to rescue prisoners. One issue investigated was selection of aircrew. Navy and Marine pilots with little experience in long-range overland navigation or refueling from C-130s were selected though more than a hundred qualified Air Force H-53 pilots were available. Another issue was the lack of a comprehensive readiness evaluation and mission rehearsal program. From the beginning, training was not conducted in a truly joint manner; it was compartmented and held at scattered locations throughout the US. The limited rehearsals that were conducted assessed only portions of the total mission. Also at issue was the number of helicopters used. The commission concluded that at least ten and perhaps as many as twelve helicopters should have been launched to guarantee the minimum of six required for completion of the mission. The plan was also criticized for using the "hopscotch" method of ground refueling instead of air refueling as was used for the Son Tay raid. By air refueling en route, the commission thought the entire Desert One scenario could have been avoided."

"This accusation of inadequate pilot motivation is echoed by the on-scene air commander Colonel James Kyle who blames the pilot of Helo Number Five for aborting the mission."

Kyle, Col. (Ret.) James H., and John Robert Eidson. The Guts to Try: The Untold Story of the Iran Hostage Rescue Mission By the On-Scene Desert Commander, (New York: Orion Books, 1990).

"Beckwith was reputed to have blamed the pilots for the failure of the mission. His account, admittedly riddled with the fallible wisdom of perfect hindsight, describes the mental shakiness he had observed in some of the pilots. Furthermore, when a helicopter had collided with a C-130 fixed-wing plane and exploded during the withdrawal from the scene (after the mission had been aborted), the helicopter pilots had abandoned their helicopters and left the aircraft there (containing money, maps, documents and so on) without taking time to destroy their aircraft and hence maintain security. Beckwith had called them "cowards"."

Beckwith, Colonel (Ret.) Charlie, and Donald Knox, Delta Force (New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich, 1983).


Like I said before.

Other than being President, Carter was not to blame.

Other than the budget corrections to Fiscal Year rather than Calendar Year, you've repeated my argument almost verbatim. Bowden includes Kyle and Beckwith's remarks - alluded to in post #204 (saw no need to degrade the USMC) - in his book.

WTF, the remarks in Munch's citations above are not included in the wiki article.

Again, the Delta Force was not trained to fly Sea Stallions. The Marine pilots were not trained and integrated to work with Delta Force. Training and readiness is governed by budget. It was Carter's budget. Violá!

Originally Posted by WTF

I think I will go with Munch's version!

Sounds a hell of alot more reasonable.

Munch's argument is my argument; hence, you are agreeing with me!

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by WTF

No, I have replied twice.

He just didn't like the answer.

You are correct...he did not get the Iranians to fund the Libya crap. He should have and then you righties would have nothing to bitch about, hell get Ollie North to divert any profits from the sale to GM!

Your link is too broad - you more or less said your evidence is out there, find it for yourself. BTW, that's also another way to say you cannot find a link to substantiate your statement; thus, rendering your statement as nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

so, the pilots not having the required delta force training hogwash?

I didn't say they were Delta Force trained.

I said, "The military’s pilots who were involved in the mission and the accident were the best trained we had. All had many, many years of experience and almost certainly were Viet Nam veterans. Why do I say that? Because that’s who you send on a mission like that."

They weren't trained well enough after practicing the mission when training money would have been throw at them. The Holloway report states the lapses.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Munch's argument is my argument; hence, you are agreeing with me!

I just agree with Munch in that it was not really Carters fault the mission failed. I do not think you two agree on that important point. Maybe I am wrong.

The budget went up not down under Carter. If that is what the both of ya'll are saying , I agree. Hot damn , I can read the numbers!

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Your link is too broad - you more or less said your evidence is out there, find it for yourself. BTW, that's also another way to say you cannot find a link to substantiate your statement; thus, rendering your statement as nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.

I did exactly as you did. I made a false statement , then linked it to a BS link. The same link where you had said scientist agreed with you. Total BS.

It went over both you and dilbert's head as to what I was doing.

Wait , if memory serves me correctly, I thought I had read that. Upon further review, that was not the case.....then I linked it to the same scientific link that had nothing to do with nothing.

I'm not much for lying , unless it is done in jest or a true mistake. This was a true mistake and from there I just fuc'd with you two. I hope that is now as clear as mud!

[Munchmasterman]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Other than the budget corrections to Fiscal Year rather than Calendar Year, you've repeated my argument almost verbatim. Bowden includes Kyle and Beckwith's remarks - alluded to in post #204 (saw no need to degrade the USMC) - in his book.

WTF, these are the remarks are not included in the wiki article.

Again, the Delta Force was not trained to fly Sea Stallions. The Marine pilots were not trained and integrated to work with Delta Force. Training and readiness is governed by budget. It was Carter's budget. Violá!



Munch's argument is my argument; hence, you are agreeing with me!

Proscribed training is governed by budget. Training lapses or unknown needs are not.
This didn't happen because Delta didn't fly Sea Stallions or that Marines weren't trained to work with Delta. These were mechanical failures. After those failures there were not enough helicopters.
This didn't happen because money for training wasn't available. The Holloway report detailed training, training that was not considered nessecary, that would be added to the skill set needed by future pilots. The whole report was about identifing and fixing the things that screwed up the mission.

It happened because the training didn't cover all the subjects it needed to.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by dilbert firestorm

I'm not aware of any reports that the U.S was getting reimbursed by its participating allies for support costs.

If you can show that link. I'll shut up about this and say Obama pulled a Reagan.

Originally Posted by WTF

You are correct...he did not get the Iranians to fund the Libya crap. He should have and then you righties would have nothing to bitch about, hell get Ollie North to divert any profits from the sale to GM!

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Your link is too broad - you more or less said your evidence is out there, find it for yourself. BTW, that's also another way to say you cannot find a link to substantiate your statement; thus, rendering your statement as nothing more than unsubstantiated opinion.

I'm with IB on this one. the website fas.org? WTF, are you kidding me?

I looked, can't find it. my search fu isn't working. I did find a bunch of PDFs about congressional meetings over libya & the war powers act. Just the legal discussions and other operational & policy considerations were discusssed in these pdfs.

Nothing on the funding & support of the libyan war; let alone reimbursement costs provided by our allies.

If I didn't know any better I'd say you're pulling my leg on this claim.

[dilbert firestorm]

Originally Posted by WTF

I did exactly as you did. I made a false statement , then linked it to a BS link. The same link where you had said scientist agreed with you. Total BS.

It went over both you and dilbert's head as to what I was doing.

Wait , if memory serves me correctly, I thought I had read that. Upon further review, that was not the case.....then I linked it to the same scientific link that had nothing to do with nothing.

I'm not much for lying , unless it is done in jest or a true mistake. This was a true mistake and from there I just fuc'd with you two. I hope that is now as clear as mud!

I can't speak for IB, but it certainly flew over my head with the fas.org link. I didn't get why you posted that link to the website instead of a specific link.

false statement my ass.

it may not be lying, but what you did was dishonest when you had no intention of refuting my comments over the libya funding.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Munchmasterman

Proscribed training is governed by budget. Training lapses or unknown needs are not.
This didn't happen because Delta didn't fly Sea Stallions or that Marines weren't trained to work with Delta. These were mechanical failures. After those failures there were not enough helicopters.
This didn't happen because money for training wasn't available. The Holloway report detailed training, training that was not considered nessecary, that would be added to the skill set needed by future pilots. The whole report was about identifing and fixing the things that screwed up the mission.

It happened because the training didn't cover all the subjects it needed to.

You cite both Kyle and Beckwith, and then ignore their input.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by WTF

I did exactly as you did. I made a false statement , then linked it to a BS link. The same link where you had said scientist agreed with you. Total BS.

This is a complete BS lie. FAS.org is the homepage for the Federation of American Scientist.

When you are given a website, like you were yesterday: http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992...24-october.htm. To find the home page, you drop everything after the ".org". You couldn't figure that out for yourself and had to be spoon fed.