Dallas Police Officer goes home to the wrong apartment, kills man inside !!

[dark3419]

Originally Posted by TexTushHog

But I agree there absolutely should be a duty to retreat.

Why?


Forget about the particular case this thread started on. Suppose for the sake of argument that you bump or jostle someone at a store who is having a really, really bad day. This person starts shouting and yelling at you, maybe even shoving you. You back away. The person keeps on advancing at you. Should you have to let yourself be backed into a corner first? Or maybe risk tripping on an unseen obstacle and becoming helpless for that brief time?


Anyone who has taken training for a concealed handgun license knows that it's always best to de-escalate situations, avoid fights, and try to withdraw if possible. It's simply prudent, and the intelligent thing to do ( you don't win arguments with screaming idiots - it just doesnt work). But why should a peaceful, law-abiding person have ANY duty towards a violent person, a criminal, etc?


Your duty is to YOURSELF, and your family - not towards the criminals.

[Guest083119]

Off the top of my head, I’d say in the scenario you describe, unless you work at that store, Texas law does not remove your duty to retreat. You are only allowed to meet force with like force and not escalate the situation. So, if you shoot someone for yelling and screaming or even shoving you, you’re likely to find yourself in trouble. It would be up to you to prove to the jury that your fear of imminent death or serious injury was reasonable.

But to answer your question of why a law abiding citizen has a duty toward a violent person, the answer is, they don’t. They have a duty to follow the law and like you mentioned, not escalate the situation.

[grean]

Originally Posted by dark3419

Why?


Forget about the particular case this thread started on. Suppose for the sake of argument that you bump or jostle someone at a store who is having a really, really bad day. This person starts shouting and yelling at you, maybe even shoving you. You back away. The person keeps on advancing at you. Should you have to let yourself be backed into a corner first? Or maybe risk tripping on an unseen obstacle and becoming helpless for that brief time?


Anyone who has taken training for a concealed handgun license knows that it's always best to de-escalate situations, avoid fights, and try to withdraw if possible. It's simply prudent, and the intelligent thing to do ( you don't win arguments with screaming idiots - it just doesnt work). But why should a peaceful, law-abiding person have ANY duty towards a violent person, a criminal, etc?


Your duty is to YOURSELF, and your family - not towards the criminals.

+ a Bijillion.

Not to mention that a ridiculously large number of defensive gun uses(DGU) that occur annually dont end with the trigger being pulled, but instead often end with the criminal being held at bay until police arrive or simply pulling the gun causes the criminal to flee.

There are millons of CCL and LTC holders....There are less than 15k deaths per year by fire arms, not counting people who offed themselves, and only a small fraction of the 15k are from DGUs.

Most good people aren't looking for any excuse to kill someone and do look for a way not to if they can.

Retreating will get you and yours hurt or worse.


This officer was just a dumbass.

[grean]

Not retreating does not mean you have to chose to kill.

[slowmover]

Remember where this started: An innocent man was shot and killed in his home.

[dark3419]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Remember where this started: An innocent man was shot and killed in his home.

Yes. Pretty sure most everyone on here would agree that the officer was at the very least negligent or reckless in shooting him.


She'll surely get a manslaughter conviction at minimum.

[rexdutchman]

Sometimes backing out IS the best option , if possible .( in this case I think it would have been the best at least till she had back up ) If he chased her ^ or like the store scenario it will be ALOT easer to defend , just me

[Scribe]

OK - again, lets flip this and get the comments:

White female officer, in her apartment - goes in and for some reason the door doesn't click shut. Black man, parks on the wrong floor and mistakenly goes toward the apartment, (For this version, the black male had a CCL handgun).

...he thinks it's his apartment, so he puts the key in and the door opens. (Same scenario as reported), seeing a figure in "what he believes is his apartment" he draws his weapon and yells out "Hold it! Put you f'in hands up!" (or whatever you think a black guy would yell).

The figure advances on him and he fires, woman dead.

He now realizes..." holy hand-grenades, I'm in the wrong apartment. What have I done?" and calls 911.

Now at this point I know you're all going to want to speculate on the fact that "He would have been charged murder 1" and "He's never make bond", but forget those comments for a moment...

• Would you say, him - coming into (what he believed was his own apartment, confronting an unknown) but having a CCL weapon on him, SHOULDN'T have drawn it and done what he did? He should have "exited"?

If you would say "YES" to the above scene... then I would place into conjecture that you have (1) no concept of self protection, (2) no idea of how or why to obtain and carry a weapon, (3) are against guns in general, and (4) have little to say on how this went down.

If you still feel you can say, "I'm not against CCL weapons", then I would like to hear your reasoning on WHEN to you feel it's right to draw and interact?

(Because I hear those of you who say - "oh, she should have left or called for back-up" and I'm getting the impression that you'd say that in every shooting. Man knifing his child on the front lawn - actual case - "They didn't HAVE to shoot him, they could have called for back-up!")

[slowmover]

"OK - again, lets flip this and get the comments:"


Why not discuss the facts related to something that actually happened?

[billyjames]

DO you know what happened? please tell us.. I say let them do their jobs,and do a complete and correct investigation, then depending on what the findings are, either bring charges or not.

[Guest083119]

Im not against people with CCLs at all. As a matter of fact, I wish every gun owner had one because then I know they are knowledgeable about gun safety.

That said, I still think it is most prudent to retreat if possible, not because you don’t have a right to defend yourself or your property, but in reality, it is most likely the safest thing for you to do. Either you are engaging a dangerous criminal or you are shooting an unarmed person and may face serious consequences.

In either of the presented scenarios, when the shooter was just barely inside the door, the safest thing, when surprising the person inside, would be to draw your weapon and step outside and wait to shoot that person if they came at you. Otherwise, hold them at bay and call 911.

I know a couple of people who have accidentally killed an innocent unarmed person and never recovered from the trauma of it. One shooter killed himself and the other ended up an addict. That’s why I think shooting someone in one of these scenarios should come as a last resort.

I’ll state it again. Most burglars are unarmed. We aren’t talking a home invasion, where I’d say...shoot to kill. We are talking petty thieves looking for a quick score.

[Scribe]

Originally Posted by slowmover

"OK - again, lets flip this and get the comments:"


Why not discuss the facts related to something that actually happened?

Because SM you're missing the entire reason for these threads and posts "discussion"... if not for discussion why do you come to The Sandbox? To get your daily news?

billyjames is right... I mean, if you just want to know the proven facts (I say let them do their jobs and do a complete and correct investigation, then depending on what the findings are, either bring charges or not.)... ok... that's reasonable. It's what WILL happen anyway.

But the entire fun on any of this is conjecture: and discussion of opinions and viewpoints.

That what MOST threads (except for ads or direct questions) are about.

Don't you ever read the "area descriptions"?
The Sandbox is a collection of off-topic discussions. Humorous threads, Sports talk, and a wide variety of other topics can be found here. If it's NOT an adult-themed topic, then it belongs here

Why does discussion get you so upset? Because people are "wasting your time with their dribble?" Then don't read these. Anyone (btw) who "upsets you" you can just BLOCK... block enough and it'll actually appears like you're the KING OF ECCIE and nobody else is here!

ITS JUST MY CORRECT OPINIONS AND NOBODY DISAGREES OR CHALLENGES! HA! HA! HA! I'VE WON!!

[Scribe]

Originally Posted by B Three

Im not against people with CCLs at all. As a matter of fact, I wish every gun owner had one because then I know they are knowledgeable about gun safety.

That said, I still think it is most prudent to retreat if possible, not because you don’t have a right to defend yourself or your property, but in reality, it is most likely the safest thing for you to do. Either you are engaging a dangerous criminal or you are shooting an unarmed person and may face serious consequences.

In either of the presented scenarios, when the shooter was just barely inside the door, the safest thing, when surprising the person inside, would be to draw your weapon and step outside and wait to shoot that person if they came at you. Otherwise, hold them at bay and call 911.

I know a couple of people who have accidentally killed an innocent unarmed person and never recovered from the trauma of it. One shooter killed himself and the other ended up an addict. That’s why I think shooting someone in one of these scenarios should come as a last resort.

I’ll state it again. Most burglars are unarmed. We aren’t talking a home invasion, where I’d say...shoot to kill. We are talking petty thieves looking for a quick score.

...and this Bx3, I agree with... and this officer (I hope) doesn't end up "biting the barrel" - but in light of the circumstances, and the community outrage - and the fact that "I'm sorry" and "accident" are now (in a large section of the population) "racially impossible"... I wouldn't be surprised.

If Christine Blasey Ford is supposedly receiving death threats and under so much stress for talking about something that may have happened 30 years ago - I can't imagine the calls, mail, messages, and stress this woman is getting over this event that just happened, and the by far many more people who are jumping to the conclusion (correctly or not) that she should "pay the price" for what she did.

said so many times here... it was horrible, and it was stupid... but we weren't there. I almost shot my dog once hunting... wasn't expecting the pheasant where it was... If I'd have shot my dog, I would have been suicidal. Unless you're a sociopath - I would think the realization (even for police) that you actually shot someone , would create the PTSD that soldiers feel. Add to the fact that she knows (now) this wasn't a criminal - and it's got to be just a crushing weight.

[Barrymccockinner]

Originally Posted by Scribe

...and this Bx3, I agree with... and this officer (I hope) doesn't end up "biting the barrel" - but in light of the circumstances, and the community outrage - and the fact that "I'm sorry" and "accident" are now (in a large section of the population) "racially impossible"... I wouldn't be surprised.

If Christine Blasey Ford is supposedly receiving death threats and under so much stress for talking about something that may have happened 30 years ago - I can't imagine the calls, mail, messages, and stress this woman is getting over this event that just happened, and the by far many more people who are jumping to the conclusion (correctly or not) that she should "pay the price" for what she did.

said so many times here... it was horrible, and it was stupid... but we weren't there. I almost shot my dog once hunting... wasn't expecting the pheasant where it was... If I'd have shot my dog, I would have been suicidal. Unless you're a sociopath - I would think the realization (even for police) that you actually shot someone , would create the PTSD that soldiers feel. Add to the fact that she knows (now) this wasn't a criminal - and it's got to be just a crushing weight.

So you just compared A) a potentially sexual harassment victim to a killer of an innocent man in his home and B) a dead black guy to a dog. Ok.

[Guest083119]

I think Scribe’s point was that people get suicidal and have PTSD for far less.