Abortion

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by yeahsurewhatev

So, this one doctor, speaking to a man about abortion, is "the medical community"? Sure, let's go with that. No need to actually learn anything, or even think for that matter.

He's a member of the Medical Community and I would be hard pressed to believe he would be the only Doctor with that sentiment. But if the Medical Community as a whole is ok with Abortion that's on them, doesn't mean it's right.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

Doctors are Gods ?

There are thousands of crooked doctors.

That's a definite truth.

[CreatedInSpace]

Originally Posted by VitaMan

If humans have no soul, what makes us different from the animals ?

Higher functioning brains, thumbs and cooked food.

[eccieuser9500]

Originally Posted by CreatedInSpace

Higher functioning brains, thumbs and cooked food.

False.


Chimpanzee Food Preferences, Associative Learning, and the Origins of Cooking


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/art...20to%20do%20it.

While there is no evidence that any non-human primate or species naturally cooks its food, chimpanzees can be taught to cook and have the cognitive skills to do so. In a 2015 study, scientists found that chimpanzees prefer cooked food, understand that cooking changes raw foods, and will give up convenience to cook. In one experiment, researchers introduced different cooking devices and found that the chimps chose the device that would cook a potato slice. In another experiment, researchers tested the chimps to see if they could cook food on their own by putting it into the right device, and in most cases they were able to.

Thumbs don't make a difference in reproduction. But I will concede there is a debate on "higher" functioning brains.

[CreatedInSpace]

I’m sorry that guy went through the trouble of hypothesizing that chimps might prefer cooked food, and wasted someone’s money researching it. It was fun to read, but explicitly backs my point, not whatever one you’re trying to make.

From the paper:
“Cooking is one capacity that appears to be unique to humans, as we know of no demonstrations that another primate or non-primate species naturally cooks its food.”

[eccieuser9500]

Originally Posted by CreatedInSpace

I’m sorry that guy went through the trouble of hypothesizing that chimps might prefer cooked food, and wasted someone’s money researching it. It was fun to read, but explicitly backs my point, not whatever one you’re trying to make.

From the paper:
“Cooking is one capacity that appears to be unique to humans, as we know of no demonstrations that another primate or non-primate species naturally cooks its food.”

Might prefer cooked food? Please concede they do. And they can learn.

Back to business: what is the purpose of life? If you have a will, your own, to live, then you're alive. We are no different than basic primates. Keep the species going. "Abortion? What's that? I'm alive."


Spontaneous Abortion and Preterm Labor and Delivery in Nonhuman Primates: Evidence from a Captive Colony of Chimpanzees


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3174954/

As in humans, pregnancy loss is not uncommon in chimpanzees, In addition, our findings indicate that both humans and chimpanzees show a similar range of normal variation in gestation length, suggesting this was the case at the time of their last common ancestor (LCA). Nevertheless, our data suggest that whereas chimpanzees' normal gestation length is ∼20–30 days after reaching viability, humans' normal gestation length is approximately 50 days beyond the estimated date of viability without medical intervention. Future research using a comparative evolutionary framework should help to clarify the extent to which mechanisms at work in normal and preterm parturition are shared in these species.

[yeahsurewhatev]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

He's a member of the Medical Community and I would be hard pressed to believe he would be the only Doctor with that sentiment. But if the Medical Community as a whole is ok with Abortion that's on them, doesn't mean it's right.

Probably means it's medically right, don'tcha think? (You were the one who said they should get involved in the conversation. Was that, unless they don't agree with you?)

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by yeahsurewhatev

Probably means it's medically right, don'tcha think? (You were the one who said they should get involved in the conversation. Was that, unless they don't agree with you?)

Their involvement should be limited to a Medical Emergency. In other words the Medical Community can restrict Doctors from performing Abortions when the mother is healthy and the Fetus is healthy and there is no foreseeable risk to the pregnancy going full term.

[yeahsurewhatev]

Originally Posted by Levianon17

Their involvement should be limited to a Medical Emergency. In other words the Medical Community can restrict Doctors from performing Abortions when the mother is healthy and the Fetus is healthy and there is no foreseeable risk to the pregnancy going full term.

There's research on that, too (just one from Scientific American)- Pregnancy Is Far More Dangerous Than Abortion

And, really, what's bolded shows appalling ignorance for anyone engaging in this conversation, unless, that is, they have decided the woman doesn't matter.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

Or that doctor doesn't much care about women. Par for your course.

I don't think that's the case.

[Levianon17]

Originally Posted by yeahsurewhatev

There's research on that, too (just one from Scientific American)- Pregnancy Is Far More Dangerous Than Abortion

And, really, what's bolded shows appalling ignorance for anyone engaging in this conversation, unless, that is, they have decided the woman doesn't matter.

Yeah, 7.5 Billion human lives on the planet prove that. What's more disturbing than Abortion are the motivations behind it.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by yeahsurewhatev

There's research on that, too (just one from Scientific American)- Pregnancy Is Far More Dangerous Than Abortion

And, really, what's bolded shows appalling ignorance for anyone engaging in this conversation, unless, that is, they have decided the woman doesn't matter.

Please see post 97 in this thread,

https://eccie.net/showpost.php?p=106...5&postcount=97

which links to this paper,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2709326/

While the probability of a mother dying from a live birth is much higher than from a legal abortion, it's a risk most Mom's would consider well worth taking. That's even though maternal death rates in the U.S. are high by developed world standards.

However, when women seek out something like an illegal back alley abortion, then the risk of abortion to the Mom's health way exceeds the risk of giving birth. Worldwide, the maternal mortality rate for "unsafe" abortions is about 340/100,000. Compare to about 25 deaths per 100,000 in the USA for live births.

While Levianon is strongly pro life, he doesn't want government intervening in abortion decisions, so I don't believe there's room to criticize him on this, for potentially wanting to drive abortions underground.

Btw, the maternal mortality rate for live births in the USA is worse than the West Bank, Gaza, Egypt, and Ukraine among other places. We should do better.

[CreatedInSpace]

I doubt many mothers would put their own life before her unborn baby without external pressure from the husband/parents/other kids/etc. If a mom and kid were in a burning building and the fireman said there’s only time to get one out, 99% of moms would tell him to save the child. My folks were tough love assholes, typical Asian parents who constantly pushed their kids to exceed their limits, who my sister and I couldn’t stand at times, but I have no doubt either of them would jump in front of a bus to save either of us.

[CreatedInSpace]

Originally Posted by eccieuser9500

Might prefer cooked food? Please concede they do. And they can learn.

So? A good trainer can teach a dog to deal cards, that doesn’t mean dealing cards is a trait seen in dogs. It’s not, just like cooking food isn’t a trait found in primates. Read your own article.

[VitaMan]

Originally Posted by CreatedInSpace

Higher functioning brains, thumbs and cooked food.

Then you are still equating humans as nothing more than another animal. There is no basis for morality with animals.......only the law of the jungle.


We have invented laws to modify jungle laws. And some pretty bad ones have been invented. Abortion laws come to mind.