Another health care thread.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Isn't that special. Is he also an expert on the social political implications of the feds fucking up 17% of the GDP?

PJ--As usual, you don't listen to opposing viewpoints but just jump to your previously held opinions. That is NOT the mark of a scholar, but it is the mark of someone who would rather not weigh the facts and opposing viewpoints and arrive at a well-considered conclusion.

Your retort was merely an epithet, which is normally uttered from the mouths of people who are not schooled in the facts. It's much easier (and a lot lazier) to trot out a "f*ck you" than it is to intelligently back up your position.

[pjorourke]

Well I usually put the effort into my comments that the "opponent" warrants.

I'm not going to waste time writing a deep, well research article about something as controversial as healthcare. Especially responding to someone who has repeatedly demonstrated an open hostility to basic concepts like free markets, supply/demand and profits.

My point is very simple. The Feds basically screwed the pooch on healthcare. Why would I beleive they can fix it. Though grandiose schemes like Medicare, medicaid, and the tax system, they have completely separated the healthcare systems from basic economic signals that have to govern these things. That is why we spend bazillions of dollars on things that are worth it to the guy not paying the bill, bute not so much to the rest of us paying the bills. The "crisis" in the healthcare system is all of those chickens coming home to roost.

I am not the least bit impressed by MIT credential in the "healthcare problem" (and MIT is a damn fine school) -- particularly when they suggest the solution is the same as the problem. It portrays a typical "intelligentsia" approach with not a wit of common sense.

[ASharperImage]

Did you even bother to watch the video before bothering dismissing it? Does the fact that this guy helped design a system that is actually in place and largely met its goals for the last 3+ years since inception not matter?

Of course...why let facts, data, real world observations get in the way of a good talking point?

PJ, or any of the other free market mavens here. Tell how how the free market system can effectively solve the heath care problem where the root issue is that people who actually need heath care are the very ones that heath insurance companies desperately try to deny coverage and care to?

You guys seem to be fine with the publicly run fire and police departments. I don't see anyone here saying that we shouldn't pay for police services to poor neighborhoods or illegal immigrants. Personally, I feel like the elephant in the room is that some people just don't feel like heath care is a universal right. Is that the case?

[charlestudor2005]

ASI--At least someone watched it. I was impressed with him, which is why I posted the link. Normally, I tune in CSpan to put me back to sleep. LOL. But occasionally, it surprises me like this one did.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

[Awake at 2 AM and channel surfing to put myself back to sleep.]

Ran across a talk given by MIT Economist Jonathan Gruber (health care expert). From a purely economic standpoint he is very much behind the current health care bill. Is it perfect? No, he says. But he says it is better than nothing, and mostly sides w/ Democrats' assertions.

He does say the whole issue of health care is unbelievably complex. He says it is easier to attack the whole health care issue with a huge approach like this than by piecemeal.

Even those who don't agree with the health care bill should see this presentation. I found it quite enlightening. You can find it here:

http://www.c-span.org/search.aspx?For=gruber

BTW, I get the impression Gruber didn't pre-judge his position, but did his research. It is obvious from his talk that he is completely knowledgeable about health care studies and issues.

Originally Posted by ASharperImage

Did you even bother to watch the video before bothering dismissing it? ?

Hell no I didn't watch the video.Here I'll say to you the same thing I say to our resident Link King, WTF, when he goes link happy: This is a message board (where we are supposed to be talking about sex, BTW). Make your point in a couple of compelling paragraphs. There are literally millions of "studies," "papers" and "exposes" out there on the interwebs all written by "experts." I really don't want to add to my reading list. Use a link as support or documentation for your POV. Your link shouldn't be your POV, at least if you are hoping I'll read it

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

I was impressed with him

Well read this then: http://dailycaller.com/2010/01/11/mi...a-health-plan/

How do you spell "conflict of interest"? You dis the insurance companies as being biased and then accept this guy as gospel.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by ASharperImage

Personally, I feel like the elephant in the room is that some people just don't feel like heath care is a universal right. Is that the case?

Correctemundo!

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Well read this then: http://dailycaller.com/2010/01/11/mi...a-health-plan/

How do you spell "conflict of interest"? You dis the insurance companies as being biased and then accept this guy as gospel.

From the Daily Caller's "About Us" page:

"Founded by Tucker Carlson, a 20-year veteran of print and broadcast media, and Neil Patel, former chief policy adviser to Vice President Cheney."

Don't think you will get a balanced view with these guys in the mix.

'Nuf said.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Hell no I didn't watch the video.Here I'll say to you the same thing I say to our resident Link King, WTF, when he goes link happy: This is a message board (where we are supposed to be talking about sex, BTW). Make your point in a couple of compelling paragraphs. There are literally millions of "studies," "papers" and "exposes" out there on the interwebs all written by "experts." I really don't want to add to my reading list. Use a link as support or documentation for your POV. Your link shouldn't be your POV, at least if you are hoping I'll read it

1. If you think this thread didn't belong on the board, why didn't you RTM it?
2. If you didn't think this thread belonged on the board, why do you even participate?
3. Due to Board limitations, the only thing I can post is the video link.
4. If you don't want to watch or read, don't. But then don't bitch about it...maybe some on the board do.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by ASharperImage

PJ, or any of the other free market mavens here. Tell how how the free market system can effectively solve the heath care problem where the root issue is that people who actually need heath care are the very ones that heath insurance companies desperately try to deny coverage and care to?

You guys seem to be fine with the publicly run fire and police departments. I don't see anyone here saying that we shouldn't pay for police services to poor neighborhoods or illegal immigrants. Personally, I feel like the elephant in the room is that some people just don't feel like heath care is a universal right. Is that the case?

I disagree with your root cause & I'll leave it at that for now.

As for police & fire, I'll note that many municipalities have outsourced portions of public safety functions to for profit companies with some success including cost savings and service levels.

As for your elephant in the room, I don't want to speak for others, but I don't think the is the case. The questions people are debating are "how" & "at what level"

And just so we are clear, we currently have universal healthcare - show up in an emergency room with cardiac arrest or a dangling limb & you will be treated -- insured/uninsured/legal/illegal

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

And just so we are clear, we currently have universal healthcare - show up in an emergency room with cardiac arrest or a dangling limb & you will be treated -- insured/uninsured/legal/illegal

You're a bloody idiot if you think that constitutes universal health care. It does not address any kind of preventive care at all. I dare say you go to your doctors (and not all people can afford to have their own doctors) several times yearly, not only for preventive care, but also for ailments that you wouldn't even consider having treated at an emergency room. The only difference between you and someone who can't afford it, is that you pay your minimal copay, while the uninsured suffers because if they pay anything, it takes needed food off the table.

You're a heartless wonder.

And now, I'll quit posting in this thread before Fox or JB assesses points or bans me.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

And now, I'll quit posting in this thread before Fox or JB assesses points or bans me.

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

From the Daily Caller's "About Us" page:

"Founded by Tucker Carlson, a 20-year veteran of print and broadcast media, and Neil Patel, former chief policy adviser to Vice President Cheney."

Don't think you will get a balanced view with these guys in the mix.

'Nuf said.

That was just the first instance. There is plenty of other references to his conflict. Since you are so good with google, search a bit.

[Ansley]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

before Fox or JB assesses points or bans me.

foX who is he? Sure never see him around.

Okay guys I'll step back out of here.

[discreetgent]

Originally Posted by ASharperImage

Personally, I feel like the elephant in the room is that some people just don't feel like heath care is a universal right. Is that the case?

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Correctemundo!

Honesty is good