Redistribution of wealth

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

I know one person right now who deals [beep] while collecting welfare and foodstamps for his 4 kids and he refuses to get a job while qualifying for the EITC. You are a fool to believe there aren't lazy people who don't even try. I know another guy who is collecting disability and shoots pool 4 to 5 days/nights a week with a "bad back". He isn't trying to better his situation and the money he wins shooting pool isn't being reported. He doesn't want a job because everyone will piss test his ass and he isn't giving up the [beep] he smokes. To them it's free money, they don't have to do a thing for it and they damned sure take advantage of it and the people who actually pay taxes.

Damn, DFW, why the hell don't you do your part and turn these people in to the authorities???

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Damn, DFW, why the hell don't you do your part and turn these people in to the authorities???

The dealer was the asshole that sued me when an ex gf hit him in my car. he's on probation. Dallas county isn't doing anything now. The pool player is visited monthly by a bureaucrat to "check in on him" he is exempt from piss tests due to his prescriptions.

[SexySyan]

Originally Posted by heidilynnla

I don't mind them paying "nothing" if they make nothing, I just don't feel they need my money. I earned it. How can you get more back than you paid? Its called a refund.

Just to comment on how can you get more back than you paid..... its called unearned income!!! I also have dependents and i normally get a good amount back but it takes a lot to support them so its like the governments way of refunding us on "i guess you can say" supporting out children. They get taxes from the childcare we pay and not to mention the amount of money it cost to care and provide for them they also get taxes on all those things we have to purchase.... But i too understand your frustration, just because you haven't pushed out any children you get a peace of s**t amount.....

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by charlestudor2005

Damn, DFW, why the hell don't you do your part and turn these people in to the authorities???

I used to live in a small town with one very large manufacturing plant. Law of large numbers at any given time some of them would be out on disability. Some of them would start to like the idea of collecting a paycheck without having to actually go work.

Boredom or laziness would set in & Jim or Bob would be spotted mowing the lawn or some other physical activity a disabled man shouldn't be doing. Being a small town that loved to gossip eventually word would get back to the HR department who had on retainer a former cop turned private investigator. Within weeks evidence of malingering would be gathered & Jim or Bob would be back at work if they were lucky; if possible in rare cases they were terminated for cause.

It was nice to see these fellas get what they deserved for abusing the system.

[charlestudor2005]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Boredom or laziness would set in & Jim or Bob would be spotted mowing the lawn or some other physical activity a disabled man shouldn't be doing.

Damn that Honey-Do List!!!

[Doove]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

You are not a very observant person. I've said in thes hallowed walls, I'm not of fan of either of the people in your diatribe. Have a nice day, but nice try. However, you may need to learn how to train that mind of yours to retain information. I suggest laying off the [bleep].

Interesting you would say that, because....

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

Your going to sit there and say with a straight face that there aren't some lazy f**ks out there that would rather suck off of a gvmt teet?

...you're not very good at paying attention to what i said. Nor, apparently, are you very good at regurgitating simple data that's right in front of you, but that's neither here nor there.

I never said there aren't poor people abusing the system. There are. Just as there are rich people, and even middle class people, who abuse whatever system they can if it means more money in their pockets. But back to the poor people. If you have a way to solve the problem of abuse, then i'm all ears. Just keep your heavy handed solution of punishing those who are simply down on their luck, or not as intelligent and/or capable as you and i, to yourself. If i have to put up with people who abuse the system in order to help those who don't, i'm ok with that. I may have to swallow hard and hold my nose at times, but that's part of living in a just and understanding society. Though again, if you have a solution for eradicating the abuse, speak up.

You got a serious fantasy world going on there. I've seen all types of races beg for more programs while popping out kids to get more money while doing absolutely nothing, but sitting on their couchs sucking the cherry juice from a bonbon.

And i have also seen people who have done nothing but fall victim to an uncompromising economy. Or come from a gene pool that is not as forgiving as yours or mine.

I know one person right now who deals [beep] while collecting welfare and foodstamps for his 4 kids and he refuses to get a job while qualifying for the EITC. You are a fool to believe there aren't lazy people who don't even try. I know another guy who is collecting disability and shoots pool 4 to 5 days/nights a week with a "bad back". He isn't trying to better his situation and the money he wins shooting pool isn't being reported. He doesn't want a job because everyone will piss test his ass and he isn't giving up the [beep] he smokes. To them it's free money, they don't have to do a thing for it and they damned sure take advantage of it and the people who actually pay taxes.

Blah blah blah, we all know somebody who..... Don't we?

Edit: adding additionally the reason there is low income jobs is to give people a start. Everyone knows that teens start at low income jobs, it's a way for them to learn. Its foolish to think everyone should start at a median income when they have no experience in the job market. You work, you learn, you excel, you move up; that's the way it works. Pay your f'ing dues.

There's 9% unemployment, which doesn't take into account the rate of under-employment. In other words, your capitalist utopia can't handle everyone, whether it's in the number of jobs, or in the number of adequate jobs needed to prevent what you're spending your hours whining about - the existence of poor people. You're arguing theory. I'm arguing facts, and fact #1 is there are going to be poor people whether they try to fight their way out of it or not.

It's admirable that you attempt to extricate yourself from any moral obligation in helping the poor by blaming the poor (every last one of 'em, it would seem) for their situation.

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Doove

Interesting you would say that, because....



...you're not very good at paying attention to what i said. Nor, apparently, are you very good at regurgitating simple data that's right in front of you, but that's neither here nor there.

I never said there aren't poor people abusing the system. There are. Just as there are rich people, and even middle class people, who abuse whatever system they can if it means more money in their pockets. But back to the poor people. If you have a way to solve the problem of abuse, then i'm all ears...

It seems the big gvmt ideology is to make a new program... just sayin. "Giving a man a fish" is not my idea of helping, I prefer the "teach a man to fish" method.

...Just keep your heavy handed solution of punishing those who are simply down on their luck, or not as intelligent and/or capable as you and i, to yourself. If i have to put up with people who abuse the system in order to help those who don't, i'm ok with that. I may have to swallow hard and hold my nose at times, but that's part of living in a just and understanding society. Though again, if you have a solution for eradicating the abuse, speak up.

And i have also seen people who have done nothing but fall victim to an uncompromising economy. Or come from a gene pool that is not as forgiving as yours or mine.

Blah blah blah, we all know somebody who..... Don't we?


There's 9% unemployment, which doesn't take into account the rate of under-employment. In other words, your capitalist utopia can't handle everyone, whether it's in the number of jobs, or in the number of adequate jobs needed to prevent what you're spending your hours whining about - the existence of poor people. You're arguing theory. I'm arguing facts, and fact #1 is there are going to be poor people whether they try to fight their way out of it or not.

Even the neo-con bush had an unemployment rate below 5% until the housing market crash. How's that hope and change going for you?

It's admirable that you attempt to extricate yourself from any moral obligation in helping the poor by blaming the poor (every last one of 'em, it would seem) for their situation.

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. Well you don't know me and just because I didn't write down the charities I support doesn't mean I've extracated myself, now does it. I don't feel the need to be praised everytime I do something I choose to do out of a sense of charity.

.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

It seems the big gvmt ideology is to make a new program... just sayin. "Giving a man a fish" is not my idea of helping, I prefer the "teach a man to fish" method.

You can deflect, deny, obfuscate and ignore all you want, but you're not going to change one simple and indisputable fact. Capitalism means poor people. You can inject everyone you want with motivational steroids so that we all have the motivation of Donald Trump and Bill Gates. Know what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen is you're still going to have people making $8M/yr, people making $80K/year, and people making $8K/year. Because that's the way Capitalism works. If the dishwasher leaves his job to take a position as a corporate banker on Wall Street, then what's gonna happen is someone else is going to be the dishwasher.

Frankly, i think it's a greater obscenity that someone can make $30M/year sitting on his fat ass, blowing smoke out his butt and lying about people than it is that someone can sit on his porch and "rob" 140 million people out of $500/month. I wonder what God thinks about that.

Even the neo-con bush had an unemployment rate below 5% until the housing market crash. How's that hope and change going for you?

Bush, Obama, Reagan, Roosevelt, it doesn't matter. The US, Great Britain, Canada, Communist Russia, it doesn't matter. You're going to have poor people. And your "teach someone to fish" argument only goes so far when you have more people than you have good paying jobs. Or when you have an economic system that requires there to be low paying jobs.

I'm lucky enough to not be one of the poor. But i realize i'm not one of them, in large part, specifically because of luck. But i forget, we liberals are the elitists. Please!

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Doove

You can deflect, deny, obfuscate and ignore all you want, but you're not going to change one simple and indisputable fact. Capitalism means poor people. You can inject everyone you want with motivational steroids so that we all have the motivation of Donald Trump and Bill Gates. Know what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen is you're still going to have people making $8M/yr, people making $80K/year, and people making $8K/year. Because that's the way Capitalism works. If the dishwasher leaves his job to take a position as a corporate banker on Wall Street, then what's gonna happen is someone else is going to be the dishwasher.

Frankly, i think it's a greater obscenity that someone can make $30M/year sitting on his fat ass, blowing smoke out his butt and lying about people than it is that someone can sit on his porch and "rob" 140 million people out of $500/month. I wonder what God thinks about that.

Bush, Obama, Reagan, Roosevelt, it doesn't matter. The US, Great Britain, Canada, Communist Russia, it doesn't matter. You're going to have poor people. And your "teach someone to fish" argument only goes so far when you have more people than you have good paying jobs. Or when you have an economic system that requires there to be low paying jobs.

I'm lucky enough to not be one of the poor. But i realize i'm not one of them, in large part, specifically because of luck. But i forget, we liberals are the elitists. Please!

The only thing I here coming out of your mouth sounds a lot like Charlie Brown's teachers. You dont sound any different than any liberal blogger on huffpuff or msnbc. You have your ideology and I have mine. The difference between the 2 of us is I realize the two party paradigm is only a phrase that keeps sheep hearded into their own coral while the big gvmt goals of both parties march us into purpetual debt. Your ideology keeps you blindfolded and unable to see the parallels keeping you in the coral on the left.

I suggest this... greed comes in all forms of government, but as a founder said (pp), "when the people fear the gvmt, there is tyranny. When the gvmt fears the people there is freedom."

Absolute power corrupts. Power corrupts absolutely. - Lord Acton

Edit: You can't tell me that libs are not above greed or corruption, yet you will find fault with any conservative. I challenge you to find corruption in your own party, just as I posted possible war crimes in the other thread in D&T of a GHWBush.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

The difference between the 2 of us is I realize the two party paradigm is only a phrase that keeps sheep hearded into their own coral while the big gvmt goals of both parties march us into purpetual debt. Your ideology keeps you blindfolded and unable to see the parallels keeping you in the coral on the left.

No, the difference between the 2 of us is that i base my philosophy on a very simple fact. (edit: A fact that you've said nothing to contradict) You base yours on a convoluted theory of what you think will happen if things are done your way, where doing things your way just happens to be what benefits you. Interesting, that.

[DFW5Traveler]

Originally Posted by Doove

No, the difference between the 2 of us is that i base my philosophy on a very simple fact. (edit: A fact that you've said nothing to contradict) You base yours on a convoluted theory of what you think will happen if things are done your way, where doing things your way just happens to be what benefits you. Interesting, that.

Facts are illusive to your ideology. At no point in written history has a socialist country ever thrived. Socialism is also the prefered ideology/methodology of the eugenicist. Socialism kills and more PDF

[pjorourke]

Originally Posted by Doove

You can deflect, deny, obfuscate and ignore all you want, but you're not going to change one simple and indisputable fact. Capitalism means poor people.

Lets simplify even further: There will always be poor people.

Whether the system is capitalism, socialism, facism, or some ism that ain't been invented yet, poor people are a part of it. The evidence though is that the capitalist system produces more aggregate wealth than any other system and distributes it more fairly.

[Doove]

Originally Posted by DFW5Traveler

Facts are illusive to your ideology.

Have you even bothered to read my comments? I mean, seriously.

Originally Posted by pjorourke

Lets simplify even further: There will always be poor people.

Thank you.

Whether the system is capitalism, socialism, facism, or some ism that ain't been invented yet, poor people are a part of it. The evidence though is that the capitalist system produces more aggregate wealth than any other system and distributes it more fairly.

To the former, i think i've said essentially the same thing. As to the latter, it depends on what your definition of "fair" is. If it means a distribution of wealth based strictly on objective rather than subjective terms, which i'm ok with by the way, then yeah, it's fair. But i also think the fact that someone who plays Quarterback 16 times a year can make $12M while a soldier in Afghanistan makes $25K/year (or whatever it is they make) is highly problematic. That just doesn't seem fair. Being "worth" $5M to a Capitalist economic system doesn't mean you're worth $5M.

[TexTushHog]

Originally Posted by pjorourke

The evidence though is that the capitalist system produces more aggregate wealth than any other system and distributes it more fairly.

"More aggregate wealth." Generally, yes. There are some non-Pareto non-optimal outcomes in capitalist society, but you can generally regulate around those. This is well established economics.

"Distributes it more fairly." Not so fast. Economics has no opinion on that issue. That's a value judgment. At best, you can say that any other distribution will probably reduce aggregate wealth, which is just a restatement of the first statement. The standard by which you judge fairness is a huge argument. Rawls analysis of social contract and blind original position, quite frankly, if fairly compelling to me. That being said, for practical reasons, I don't advocate a strictly egalitarian society, but it's hard to argue that isn't the most fair, as I think Rawls fairly convincingly does.

[pjorourke]

The two ranking liberals made a good point - "fairly" is not an definitive term, it is an opinion. Let me restate. Under a capitalist system, which produces more aggregate wealth, the poor will be less poor.

As for Doove's quarterback, the price is rational as explained by our old friend supply and demand. There are a limited number of people that are capable of successfully playing quarterback in the NFL -- just like there are a limited number of people that are capable of successfully running a Fortune 100 company. There are lots of people capable of being a soldier in Afghanistan (our just happen to be better trained and equipped than most other armies.)