Exit polls show religious intolerance

[Randy4Candy]

Dang it, IIF, don't tell everyone about your penchant for water sports.....

[Sensia]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Yeah! That is what this country needs, an atheistic candidate like Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot or Ceausescu. They weren't 'nutcases'.

Were Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot atheists?


Theists hold up Communism and Nazism, along with the regime of the Cambodian tyrant Pol Pot, as evidence of murderous "atheist" tyrannies that have caused the deaths of tens of millions. While it may be true that Communism portrayed itself as "godless," it did not wage war in the name of atheism, nor were its founders and leaders raised as atheists. They were, in fact, preponderantly Jewish and Christian. Communist Manifesto writer Karl Marx was born a Jew, the grandson of two rabbis, and was converted to Christianity at age 6. Leon Trotsky, whose real name was Lev Bronstein, was born and raised a Jew but later declared himself "an internationalist."


Josef Stalin's "very religious" mother named him after St. Joseph, and wanted him to become a priest. Stalin himself supposedly claimed that his father had been a priest, and he was purportedly "damaged by violence" while being "raised in a poor priest-ridden household." As a youth, Stalin spent five years in a Greek Orthodox seminary, after which he purportedly renounced his religion. In his later years, Stalin apparently embraced Christianity once more. As Stalin biographer Edvard Radinsky remarks, "During his mysterious retreat [of June 1941] the ex-seminarist had decided to involve the aid of the God he had rejected." Radinsky likewise chronicles a number of religious comrades in Stalin's immediate circle. It is evident that, whether for good or bad, religion played a significant role in Stalin's life.
Adolf Hitler was raised a Catholic, and in a speech in 1922 he remarked, "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter..." In his autobiography Mein Kampf (1.2), Hitler stated:

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Throughout his life, Hitler invoked God and "the Lord," demonstrating his religious, not atheistic, nature. Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist and Catholic. In this regard, Dr. Ian Harris, a Reader in Religious Studies at the University College of St. Martin, relates: "In one of his early writings Pol Pot wrote approvingly that the 'democratic regime will bring back the Buddhist moralism because our great leader Buddha was the first to have taught [democracy].'" Although in comparison to the Abrahamic religions its history is far less violent, Buddhism has not been entirely devoid of atrocity in its spread and practice.


If we are to insist—as many people have done, including numerous theists and atheists alike—that religious human abuse is the cause of atheistic reaction against religion, we need look no further, it would seem, than to Josef Stalin's religiously abusive childhood to discover from where much of his rage appeared to emanate. His atheistic reaction therefore would be caused by religion. Hitler, who was also fascinated by mysticism, could not be deemed an "atheist" by any scientific standard, and Pol Pot also was not raised an atheist in a vacuum devoid of religion but was obviously affected and motivated by it.


If atheism is frequently but a reaction against human abuse by religion, then in itself such disbelief may not be the cause of malfeasance.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Guilty Pleasures

Were Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot atheists?


Theists hold up Communism and Nazism, along with the regime of the Cambodian tyrant Pol Pot, as evidence of murderous "atheist" tyrannies that have caused the deaths of tens of millions. While it may be true that Communism portrayed itself as "godless," it did not wage war in the name of atheism, nor were its founders and leaders raised as atheists. They were, in fact, preponderantly Jewish and Christian. Communist Manifesto writer Karl Marx was born a Jew, the grandson of two rabbis, and was converted to Christianity at age 6. Leon Trotsky, whose real name was Lev Bronstein, was born and raised a Jew but later declared himself "an internationalist."


Josef Stalin's "very religious" mother named him after St. Joseph, and wanted him to become a priest. Stalin himself supposedly claimed that his father had been a priest, and he was purportedly "damaged by violence" while being "raised in a poor priest-ridden household." As a youth, Stalin spent five years in a Greek Orthodox seminary, after which he purportedly renounced his religion. In his later years, Stalin apparently embraced Christianity once more. As Stalin biographer Edvard Radinsky remarks, "During his mysterious retreat [of June 1941] the ex-seminarist had decided to involve the aid of the God he had rejected." Radinsky likewise chronicles a number of religious comrades in Stalin's immediate circle. It is evident that, whether for good or bad, religion played a significant role in Stalin's life.
Adolf Hitler was raised a Catholic, and in a speech in 1922 he remarked, "My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Saviour as a fighter..." In his autobiography Mein Kampf (1.2), Hitler stated:

Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.

Throughout his life, Hitler invoked God and "the Lord," demonstrating his religious, not atheistic, nature. Pol Pot was raised a Buddhist and Catholic. In this regard, Dr. Ian Harris, a Reader in Religious Studies at the University College of St. Martin, relates: "In one of his early writings Pol Pot wrote approvingly that the 'democratic regime will bring back the Buddhist moralism because our great leader Buddha was the first to have taught [democracy].'" Although in comparison to the Abrahamic religions its history is far less violent, Buddhism has not been entirely devoid of atrocity in its spread and practice.


If we are to insist—as many people have done, including numerous theists and atheists alike—that religious human abuse is the cause of atheistic reaction against religion, we need look no further, it would seem, than to Josef Stalin's religiously abusive childhood to discover from where much of his rage appeared to emanate. His atheistic reaction therefore would be caused by religion. Hitler, who was also fascinated by mysticism, could not be deemed an "atheist" by any scientific standard, and Pol Pot also was not raised an atheist in a vacuum devoid of religion but was obviously affected and motivated by it.


If atheism is frequently but a reaction against human abuse by religion, then in itself such disbelief may not be the cause of malfeasance.

Nothing you posted refutes the fact that Stalin and Pol Pot were atheistic communists when they perpetrated their heinous crimes against their own people. Stalin had Trotsky murdered; they had a difference of opinion about many things in life. Trotsky was but one of the millions Stalin murdered. Marx was the original 'limousine-liberal' and notably and condescendingly disavowed religion as nothing more than the 'opiate of the masses' in his writings.

If you'll check above, Hitler was not offered as an example of an 'atheist'. However, nothing you posted refutes the fact that Hitler's Holocaust was not based on religion but rather on perverted 'science': a Darwinian notion of a genetically superior Master Race supported with the 'sciences' such as phrenology, etc.,.

And Hitler persecuted Christians as well as Jews.
SEE @

THE NAZI MASTER PLAN
ANNEX 4: THE PERSECUTION OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES. http://www.leics.gov.uk/the_nazi_master_plan.pdf

[Sensia]

It is an often heard refrain among less well informed Christians that Hitler and Stalin (those slightly more knowledgeable sometimes add Pol Pot and Mao Zedong) were atheists and that their atheism led them to commit atrocities resulting in the deaths of millions of people. These claims are demonstrably false.

Hitler was never an atheist.
The available evidence points to the fact that he remained a theist throughout his whole life.

It is true that , Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot were all atheists. But the primary influences that led to their atrocities were not atheism per se but their dogmatic Marxism and communist ideas.

We see that in none of these cases could atheism be made to "take the blame" for the atrocities committed by these men.

Read Rejection of Pascal's Wager

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Guilty Pleasures

It is true that , Stalin, Mao Zedong and Pol Pot were all atheists. But the primary influences that led to their atrocities were not atheism per se but their dogmatic Marxism and communist ideas.

We see that in none of these cases could atheism be made to "take the blame" for the atrocities committed by these men.

Read Rejection of Pascal's Wager

Read Marx. A central tenet of modern communism is that a true communist is an atheist. Despite your attempts to equivocate and avoid the issue, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were atheists in positions of power. As true, atheistic communists, they killed people who disagreed with their form of true, atheistic communism: the resulting deaths numbered in the hundreds of millions. Historically, it is evident that leaders who reject the notion of a 'supreme being' can be, and have been, even more cruel and murderous than leaders who deigned to accept the notion of 'supreme being'.

[Sensia]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Read Marx. A central tenet of modern communism is that a true communist is an atheist. Despite your attempts to equivocate and avoid the issue, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were atheists in positions of power. As true, atheistic communists, they killed people who disagreed with their form of true, atheistic communism: the resulting deaths numbered in the hundreds of millions. Historically, it is evident that leaders who reject the notion of a 'supreme being' can be, and have been, even more cruel and murderous than leaders who deigned to accept the notion of 'supreme being'.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree I guess.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by Guilty Pleasures

Well, we will have to agree to disagree I guess.

If denying established facts is convenient for you, go ahead.

[CJ7]

Communism is an economic (and political) perspective. Atheism deals directly with theology or "atheology" as the case may be. While Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist communism typically precludes religious organizations from legal existence, it is more for political purposes than theological ones. Churches have power over the people. The two major communistic governments of the world sought to remove power from all but the state. Hence the eradication of religious groups. Keep in mind however that the Greek Orthodox church continued to exist in some form during the entire reign of Soviet Communism, the Roman Catholic church enjoyed a certain degree of freedom during Czechoslovakia's communist era (now two separate countries Czech Republic and Slovakia, with parliamentary democracies, Roman Catholics make up the largest religious group in both countries), and although it was repressed so does Buddhism in China.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by CJ7

Communism is an economic (and political) perspective. Atheism deals directly with theology or "atheology" as the case may be. While Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist communism typically precludes religious organizations from legal existence, it is more for political purposes than theological ones. Churches have power over the people. The two major communistic governments of the world sought to remove power from all but the state. Hence the eradication of religious groups. Keep in mind however that the Greek Orthodox church continued to exist in some form during the entire reign of Soviet Communism, the Roman Catholic church enjoyed a certain degree of freedom during Czechoslovakia's communist era (now two separate countries Czech Republic and Slovakia, with parliamentary democracies, Roman Catholics make up the largest religious group in both countries), and although it was repressed so does Buddhism in China.

Keep sniveling, CBJ7. Nothing in your post is significant except for the total lack of a citation. CBJ7's post, like GP's, in no manner repudiates the fact that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were atheists; rather, it serves to reconfirm that fact.

[LovingKayla]

Not all Muslims are terrorist..... Just most of them. And in the words of Eric cartman: all it takes is most of them.

IB on your side

[JD Barleycorn]

If I understand what you're trying to say is that the aforementioned despots were religious in their youth and that is why they committed atrocities in their majority? They were all children in their youth as well. Could that be why they committed crimes? Many people are religious in their youth but do not grow old slaughtering people. I would have to say that they replaced religion with politics and I have to point out, left wing politics. Before someone writes it, Hitler started as a socialist and remained a socialist with nationalistic tendencies. So their left wing politics became their religion and their use of religion was just a ploy for the masses. Remember Marx, "religion is the opiate of the masses". They all strayed from the message of their religions and there were times when the leaders of each religion strayed as well.
You can't conclude that religion was the cause of their rage.