Fines imposed passing a schoolbus

[Whispers]

https://www.austinisd.org/articles/a...safety-program

This Arizona for Profit company seems to be making news all over for the $300 civil fines they are issuing based on school bus cameras.

The procedure for challenging/fighting the "ticket" isn't a court procedure and very few seem to have any luck doing so. And watching a video of one on a 3 lane road with a 50mph speed limit at the time the sign has fully extended the car that gets ticket is in the frame passing in less than a second..... Didn't remotely look like there is enough time to stop....... No proof of flashing lights on the back of the bus seems to be presented in the citation.... just the video of the sign extending and car passing.

Any suggestions on how to handle it? There doesn't seem to be a way to get them to fine the driver instead of the owner....

Fine comes via regular mail with no tracking so they can't even prove at the moment she is aware of it. If she ignored it what are the potential issues she might see? Supposedly it involves no points on her driving record or affects her license/registration in any manner.

It seems that if these private citation writing companies are successful with this it could expand in a lot of different ways.

[Unique_Carpenter]

There's Dallas lawsuits already on this specific issue.

As a side note, based on issues presented in the Dallas fun, there are identical issues related to the red light camera ticket situations up here in Missouri that ended up with several lawsuits, some going to the Missouri Supreme Court, resulting in no more red light camera tickets up here. BTW, same vendor.

Here's a related thought:
Is a "State licensed fully certified police officer" needed to issue the tickets?
Thus, can the muni afford to have a front line police officer sit and look at pics (drinking coffee and eating doughnuts) when that cop should be out on patrol? This is a significant budget and manpower issue. Perhaps the local muni govt should answer this, not the police chief. I would think local citizens would want the cop on the street, not sitting in an overloaded desk chair earning commissions for the vendor. Btw there's a huge difference on training between a traffic enforcement officer vs other types of cops, which could cause some individual tickets to be tossed depending on who signs the ticket.

On your bus lights vs. sign issue, it's a single switch that turns both on at the same time. But, bus must be stopped, and, time must be allowed for other vehicles to stop. Up here (Missouri) bus drivers have a policy of a "count" (5/10,whatever), and check mirrors, before they open the bus doors for kids.

To close, 12:40am and you post a legal? Were you on diaper duty?

[ShysterJon]

To me, the key issue is the procedure to appeal a citation. If someone blocked, copied, and pasted it here, with the URL, and time permitting, I'd comment on the appeal procedure.

[Whispers]

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

To me, the key issue is the procedure to appeal a citation. If someone blocked, copied, and pasted it here, with the URL, and time permitting, I'd comment on the appeal procedure.

I'll screenshot it and post it later today... In looking into it there seems to be a huge financial motivation as this company installed all the cameras on the buses and maintains them at no cost to the city taking 60% of the fee collected.

[ShysterJon]

Originally Posted by Whispers

In looking into it there seems to be a huge financial motivation as this company installed all the cameras on the buses and maintains them at no cost to the city taking 60% of the fee collected.

The same is true for red-light tickets and courts have upheld the validity of red-light tickets.

[kehaar]

The context of a red light camera is fixed, and can be reviewed.

The context of a camera on a school bus, which by definition is always changing, is unreviewable. I don't think that they are anywhere near the same thing.

It troubles me when we give up due process rights to an inherently corruptable business interests. My car was once towed(I was out of town for 2 weeks). Someone had to call in the complaint, as the spots were not regulated.

I went to pick up the car, and the price to get it out was astronomical. I asked the fella how the storage fees and wrecker fee were determined. He said that they(the company) set the fee. I asked him if that was reasonable. He said that was how markets worked. We had a long talk, and we came to the mutual conclusion that his company was an extortion racket, but that he didn't feel bad about that fact.

These systems are sold to enhance revenues, not improve public safety. That fact, alone, ought to make them illegal. If they are required for public safety, they need to be bought, and serviced out of the public til.

[ShysterJon]

kehaar, what do you mean by "reviewing" video? My understanding is video can be viewed in both contexts.

[Unique_Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Whispers

I'll screenshot it and post it later today... In looking into it there seems to be a huge financial motivation as this company installed all the cameras on the buses and maintains them at no cost to the city taking 60% of the fee collected.

Yes that's how they do it. Same outfit up here in Missouri.

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

The same is true for red-light tickets and courts have upheld the validity of red-light tickets.

Exactly Jon.
As long as the Muni codes fit within State code.

Up here in Missouri, Muni code that was implemented for the stop lights had conflicts with state code so the Supreme's up here said muni code and that vendor lose.

Of the two big wining items up here, one was that state code states that moving violations get points. A lot of the muni red light codes for camera red lights said just pay the fine and no state points (clearly an incentive to just pay the fine). So yes a conflict and muni codes got trashed on that one. The prove the owner was the driver thing was the second one.

But back to Texas. It appears that the atty attacking the Dallas school bus stop sign thing is using a couple of the same discussion items that were used up here to win in Missouri.

Last, I wonder how amused that atty would be if he found that his suit against the school districts, munis & vendor was being discussed on a hooker board.

[Whispers]

They do not "serve" these tickets or even send them registered mail but being late or not paying is an "admission of guilt"?

The review process is with a school district hearing officer. Hardly seems like an impartial entity.....

In reviewing the video the driver of the vehicle is in the far left of 3 lanes when passing the bus. Speed Limit on the road is 50MPH. Bust is on the far right of the road. At the moment the sign is fulling extended the vehicle is passing the bus in less than 1 second.....

It hardly seems time enough to stop without slamming brakes and nothing indicates what following traffic was.... If their video included the rear of the bus showing working flashing lights it could be stronger...

Of people blogging about it there seems to be little success dealing with the school administrative hearing officer but I can't see how that would be any different than trying to argue whether you deserve a ticket with an officer on the side of the road.

This is all the citation has regarding how to contest it.
ScreenHunter_03 Jun. 13 01.39.jpg

ScreenHunter_03 Jun. 13 01.41.jpg

[Unique_Carpenter]

Austin city ordinance 02150604-057

I like section 12-1-72(A)(3) where it's on the school district to satisfy due process.

Also amused by (A)(2) impartial hearing officer. Yeah employees are impartial. Heh.

Unless you just want to try get the hearing officer to dismiss it. Well...
You're going to need a live situation to have a lawsuit filed.
And that coffee mug stained coupon looks good.
So I have to wonder what the equipment timing is for the lights and sign activating vs. the camera taking pics. There will be equipment specs on that to be found.

I'd talk to the atty that on the Dallas lawsuit. He's already done most of the homework

[kehaar]

Originally Posted by ShysterJon

kehaar, what do you mean by "reviewing" video? My understanding is video can be viewed in both contexts.

Sorry for the delay in getting back.

A bus is moving, and its placement on the road, the context of the cars, intersections, building, etc are unknown, and likely unknowable, and the context of the event is unchallengeable.

A red light camera is at a fixed location, and its placement is precisely known, and the context of the buildings, proximity to the intersection, etc., is all well known, and can be challenged.

kehaar

P.S. I think that they are all bad ideas, and primarily used for revenue enhancement.

[ferg576]

I hate it when oncoming traffic stops when there is a curbed partition separating the oncoming traffic from the bus. Very nice but absolutely not required.(texas)