OBAMA'S WAR ON AMERICAN WORKERS CONTINUES...

[Whirlaway]

It isn't "Breitbarts" numbers. It is how the BLS (that is the US Bureau of Labor Services) reports the data.

And yes it includes foreign born "naturalized" citizens. Your point being?

We let workers in then hand them citizenship as well?

ok. I agree.

And if my great great grandparents were alive they would be included as well.

Originally Posted by chefnerd

You do realize that the foreign born numbers also include millions of naturalized U.S. citizens don't you? Or do you, like Breitbart the idiot, care to include them in the illegal category since you don't seem to believe that naturalize U.S. citizens are Americans?

BTW, if my father and his parents were still alive today and in the workforce, they would be included in the "foreign born" statistics even though they were U.S. citizens.

[DSK]

Why let in poor workers? Just let in rich employers. Then all the lazy Americans could get good paying jobs because they wouldn't have competition..

[Yssup Rider]

SPAM!

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by DSK

Why let in poor workers? Just let in rich employers. Then all the lazy Americans could get good paying jobs because they wouldn't have competition..

When are you going to favor us with another thrilling handle?

[BigLouie]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

You are an idiot; no other economic system has done more to create a middle class than capitalism. The single most important aspect of capitalism is private property rights. Ownership of real property and assets has been the single driving force in creating the middle class (around the word). Without property ownership where would the world's population be?

You are incorrect sir, it was UNIONS that created a strong middle class. And you are forgetting the most important thing about the middle class, it is not a stationary target. It is a moving target. The people who were middle class 30-40 years ago have moved up the ladder to upper class. The people who were poor moved up to be the new middle class. With the war on unions the buying power of the middle class just evaporated.

At the start of the last century when American industrial power boomed and companies such as Standard Oil and US Steel created wealth, it created it for the owners, the Morgans, the Rockerfellers and the like. The middle class was nowhere to be found. Their business model was to pay people as little as possible and to make as much as possible. It was not until UNIONS were formed that middle class earning power took over.

I know, I know, you don't believe me and want links. Sorry if you were really interested in the truth you do a little research on your own.

Here are some numbers to chew on:

In 1965 CEOs earned 20 times as much as the average worker, and in 2013 CEOs earned 296 times as much as the average worker.

Downwardly Mobile- Most of the workers in the new economy are downwardly mobile as manufacturing and union jobs are replaced by service jobs. Harold Myerson says, “The United States now has the highest percentage of low-wage workers – that is workers who make less than two-thirds of the median wage- of any developed nation. Fully 25 % of all American workers make no more than $17, 576 a year.”

Decreasing Demand -The uncomfortable fact is that when unions are stronger the economy as a whole does better. Unions restore demand to an economy by raising wages for their members and putting more purchasing power to work. On the flip side, when labor is weak and capital is unconstrained, corporations hoard, hiring slows, demand goes down, and inequality deepens. This is where we are now and we have both record highs in corporate profits and record lows in wages.

Collective bargaining. – The decline of unions reflects the lack of leverage of the middle class and all working people. If they don’t find some way of bargaining with the corporations then the slide in income will continue. There is no reason to think that the corporations will suddenly become more sympathetic to working people’s problems and reduce their goal of continuing to reduce labor costs unless they are somehow pressured. (See Wal-Mart) So the current day problem of unions and the weaknesses of labor are everyone’s problems.

The sad truth is that if workers have no way to bargain for wages, the only answer will be government assistance like expansion of minimum wage and food stamps. If you don’t like this idea then I ask how are we going to increase demand and purchasing power of the middle class?

[shanm]

Originally Posted by BigLouie

You are incorrect sir, it was UNIONS that created a strong middle class. And you are forgetting the most important thing about the middle class, it is not a stationary target. It is a moving target. The people who were middle class 30-40 years ago have moved up the ladder to upper class. The people who were poor moved up to be the new middle class. With the war on unions the buying power of the middle class just evaporated.

This is true. If any of you have any time I suggest you watch "Inequality for all", a documentary by Robert Reich, former Labor secretary under Clinton. It will break down the reasons for our inequality so even the layman can understand it. Most of BL's points are also elaborated upon in the documentary.
It's on Netflix and I think it's only about an hour long.

[Whirlaway]

At it's peak (1950s) the union comprised only 25% of the employed labor force in America...hardly the majority of the American middle class.

And where would union workers be without the private property rights?

Poor.

Again, the single greatest contribution to creating the middle class has been capitalism's private property rights. The right to own the fruits of your labor.

1. the right to use the good
2. the right to earn income from the good
3. the right to transfer the good to others
4. the right to enforcement of property rights.

I would add that the right to organize and collectively bargain is an important right; but not the determinative right.

Originally Posted by BigLouie

You are incorrect sir, it was UNIONS that created a strong middle class. And you are forgetting the most important thing about the middle class, it is not a stationary target. It is a moving target. The people who were middle class 30-40 years ago have moved up the ladder to upper class. The people who were poor moved up to be the new middle class. With the war on unions the buying power of the middle class just evaporated.

At the start of the last century when American industrial power boomed and companies such as Standard Oil and US Steel created wealth, it created it for the owners, the Morgans, the Rockerfellers and the like. The middle class was nowhere to be found. Their business model was to pay people as little as possible and to make as much as possible. It was not until UNIONS were formed that middle class earning power took over.

I know, I know, you don't believe me and want links. Sorry if you were really interested in the truth you do a little research on your own.

Here are some numbers to chew on:

In 1965 CEOs earned 20 times as much as the average worker, and in 2013 CEOs earned 296 times as much as the average worker.

Downwardly Mobile- Most of the workers in the new economy are downwardly mobile as manufacturing and union jobs are replaced by service jobs. Harold Myerson says, “The United States now has the highest percentage of low-wage workers – that is workers who make less than two-thirds of the median wage- of any developed nation. Fully 25 % of all American workers make no more than $17, 576 a year.”

Decreasing Demand -The uncomfortable fact is that when unions are stronger the economy as a whole does better. Unions restore demand to an economy by raising wages for their members and putting more purchasing power to work. On the flip side, when labor is weak and capital is unconstrained, corporations hoard, hiring slows, demand goes down, and inequality deepens. This is where we are now and we have both record highs in corporate profits and record lows in wages.

Collective bargaining. – The decline of unions reflects the lack of leverage of the middle class and all working people. If they don’t find some way of bargaining with the corporations then the slide in income will continue. There is no reason to think that the corporations will suddenly become more sympathetic to working people’s problems and reduce their goal of continuing to reduce labor costs unless they are somehow pressured. (See Wal-Mart) So the current day problem of unions and the weaknesses of labor are everyone’s problems.

The sad truth is that if workers have no way to bargain for wages, the only answer will be government assistance like expansion of minimum wage and food stamps. If you don’t like this idea then I ask how are we going to increase demand and purchasing power of the middle class?

[Whirlaway]

This is an important question. My answer is simple. A combination of education and skill sets that are in demand.

But equally important is to put a stop to massive legal and illegal immigration of foreign workers who compete with American workers. Imported workers work for less. Why have policies that drive wages down? Why drive our school districts into financial stress educating the children of these illegal workers? Why overburden our institutions (health, education, criminal justice) with these workers and their families? Why subsidize these workers with food stamps, housing allowances, children aid assistance, healthcare, etc.? All to the detriment of the American worker.

Until America gets back to a more rational immigration policy - border enforcement, employer enforcement and caps on immigration numbers - the race to the bottom in wages will continue.


In Germany, they have strong unions with high wages and good benefits. Germany workers are the most skilled and accomplished workers. Germany also let's very few foreign born workers in (legal or illegal). Germany's illegal immigrate population is less than 0.3% of total population, in the USA it is 10X that level. Legal immigrates to the USA exceed 1 million ANNUALLY. A number that is more than all other major economies combined. The USA should duplicate the Germany model.

Originally Posted by BigLouie

j...

The sad truth is that if workers have no way to bargain for wages, the only answer will be government assistance like expansion of minimum wage and food stamps. If you don’t like this idea then I ask how are we going to increase demand and purchasing power of the middle class?

[shanm]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

At it's peak (1950s) the union comprised only 25% of the employed labor force in America...hardly the majority of the American middle class.

And where would union workers be without the private property rights?

Poor.

Again, the single greatest contribution to creating the middle class has been capitalism's private property rights. The right to own the fruits of your labor.

1. the right to use the good
2. the right to earn income from the good
3. the right to transfer the good to others
4. the right to enforcement of property rights

1. .

I would add that the right to organize and collectively bargain is an important right; but not the determinative right.

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

This is an important question. My answer is simple. A combination of education and skill sets that are in demand.

But equally important is to put a stop to massive legal and illegal immigration of foreign workers who compete with American workers. Imported workers work for less. Why have policies that drive wages down? Why drive our school districts into financial stress educating the children of these illegal workers? Why overburden our institutions (health, education, criminal justice) with these workers and their families? Why subsidize these workers with food stamps, housing allowances, children aid assistance, healthcare, etc.? All to the detriment of the American worker.

Until America gets back to a more rational immigration policy - border enforcement, employer enforcement and caps on immigration numbers - the race to the bottom in wages will continue.


In Germany, they have strong unions with high wages and good benefits. Germany workers are the most skilled and accomplished workers. Germany also let's very few foreign born workers in (legal or illegal). Germany's illegal immigrate population is less than 0.3% of total population, in the USA it is 10X that level. Legal immigrates to the USA exceed 1 million ANNUALLY. A number that is more than all other major economies combined. The USA should duplicate the Germany model.

That is not entirely correct.

Like I said, this requires detail, it's not just something you can explain on the fly. Watch "inequality for all" if you actually want to understand all the different reasons for our exacerbated income inequality in the past few decades.

The ones you mentioned are far from the most important or relevant ones.

[BigLouie]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

At it's peak (1950s) the union comprised only 25% of the employed labor force in America...hardly the majority of the American middle class.

And where would union workers be without the private property rights?

Poor.

Again, the single greatest contribution to creating the middle class has been capitalism's private property rights. The right to own the fruits of your labor.

1. the right to use the good
2. the right to earn income from the good
3. the right to transfer the good to others
4. the right to enforcement of property rights.

I would add that the right to organize and collectively bargain is an important right; but not the determinative right.

Having the right is one thing, having companies pay the wages that allow all of this is another. Let me ask you one thing. When Standard Oil was formed, when US Steel was formed when the great industries sprung up why was there no middle class until the unions were formed?

[DSK]

Originally Posted by Whirlaway

This is an important question. My answer is simple. A combination of education and skill sets that are in demand.

But equally important is to put a stop to massive legal and illegal immigration of foreign workers who compete with American workers. Imported workers work for less. Why have policies that drive wages down? Why drive our school districts into financial stress educating the children of these illegal workers? Why overburden our institutions (health, education, criminal justice) with these workers and their families? Why subsidize these workers with food stamps, housing allowances, children aid assistance, healthcare, etc.? All to the detriment of the American worker.

Until America gets back to a more rational immigration policy - border enforcement, employer enforcement and caps on immigration numbers - the race to the bottom in wages will continue.


In Germany, they have strong unions with high wages and good benefits. Germany workers are the most skilled and accomplished workers. Germany also let's very few foreign born workers in (legal or illegal). Germany's illegal immigrate population is less than 0.3% of total population, in the USA it is 10X that level. Legal immigrates to the USA exceed 1 million ANNUALLY. A number that is more than all other major economies combined. The USA should duplicate the Germany model.

I agree with you. Big business loves immigration so they can have cheaply paid slaves to goose their profits.

[Whirlaway]

I would support a political candidate (democrat or republican) who is willing to make a deal with the American trade unions - expanded rights to organize and bargain, in exchange for serious, immediate, and real immigration controls and cutbacks (border security, strict tough employer sanctions, deportations, caps on immigration numbers and anchor baby status).

Would you support that kind of approach Big Louie and Sham?

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by BigLouie

Having the right is one thing, having companies pay the wages that allow all of this is another. Let me ask you one thing. When Standard Oil was formed, when US Steel was formed when the great industries sprung up why was there no middle class until the unions were formed?

You'd be wrong, BL. There was an aspiring and successful middle class in the 19th century who weren't directly involved in big industry as magnates or labor, e.g., farmers, ranchers, grocers, printers, haberdashers, merchants, etc. They are the ones the great cities of this country catered to when cities like New York, New Orleans and San Francisco built cable car systems to transport this middle class from the suburbs to their businesses in the heart of the cities and home again at the end of the day.

[Whirlaway]

You are correct IB.

And not just in America. And not just in the 19th - 20th century.

Read Lewis Mumford's The City In History; Its Origins, Transformations, and Prospects and you will understand that the middle class (sometimes called the merchant class) has always been the engine of economies - long before trade unions and guilds. And the great rising tide of humanity, out of poverty, slavery, indentured service, was the advent of private property rights. Otherwise known as capitalism.




http://www.amazon.com/The-City-Histo.../dp/0156180359

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

You'd be wrong, BL. There was an aspiring and successful middle class in the 19th century who weren't directly involved in big industry as magnates or labor, e.g., farmers, ranchers, grocers, printers, haberdashers, merchants, etc. They are the ones the great cities of this country catered to when cities like New York, New Orleans and San Francisco built cable car systems to transport this middle class from the suburbs to their businesses in the heart of the cities and home again at the end of the day.