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The Sandbox - National The Sandbox is a collection of off-topic discussions. Humorous threads, Sports talk, and a wide variety of other topics can be found here.

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Old 01-09-2013, 07:48 PM   #16
gnadfly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigtex View Post
Using Turdfly's "no 'ring' no induction" as the basic criteria for admission of a player and/or coach into the Basketball Hall of Fame....
Its not "my" analysis. Its just "conventional wisdom" for part of the criteria for selecting coaches and players to various HOFs. I don't know who is in and who isn't in whatever HOF you wish Guy V Lewis inducted. The people you mentioned were players, not coaches. I'm not voting for any HOF members but the writers who vote almost always mention rings as a major issue.

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Originally Posted by LexusLover View Post
...
#1 whenever a vote is taken there is usually a element of "politics" in the presentation ramping up to the vote and in the vote itself.
#2: whenever there are unexplained variances in the "presentation" and the subject of the vote that are seemingly inconsistent, politics is lurking in the background....
Right or wrong. That's marbles.
Exactly. HOF voting is very political. Trying to take "politics" out of the Collegiate Basketball HOF voting is like trying to take "Basketball" out of the Collegiate Basketball HOF. Impossible.

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Originally Posted by bigtex View Post
....I certainly did and pointed out a couple of prime examples from last years group of inductees alone. I strongly suspect, there are many more similar examples (no ring but still inducted) from prior years.
Again, the "no title" argument isn't mine, just what sportwriters are more and more using as part justification. Likely matters more in some sports than others, perhaps more in pro than "amateur." I will make two points though. Guy V and Elvin Hayes took on John Wooden and Lew Alcinder on a National Stage when UCLA were considered demigods and beat them. Guy V also had a run with players that were two of the NBA top 50 all-time players and several other NBA first rounders and couldn't win a National Championship with them.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:01 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnadfly View Post
Its not "my" analysis. Its just "conventional wisdom" for part of the criteria for selecting coaches and players to various HOFs. I don't know who is in and who isn't in whatever HOF you wish Guy V Lewis inducted. The people you mentioned were players, not coaches. I'm not voting for any HOF members but the writers who vote almost always mention rings as a major issue.
You're now differentiating between coaches and players, when before you clearly defined the HOF acceptance criteria as "no ring no induction." Initially there was no line of separation between coaches and players. How convenient! What made you backtrack?

The expectations are the same whether the person is a coach or a player. If a player can gain admission to the HOF without a "ring," then a coach can as well!

One thing you seem to be forgetting in your flawed analysis would be that Guy V was one of the greatest "post up" coaches in NCAA history. He developed quality post players such as Olajuwon, Spain, Micheaux and Hayes, just to name a few. Yes, Olajuwon and Drexler were Top 50 palyers but both were developed by Lewis. Both were raw talents when they entered UH and Guy V helped mold them into All American basketball players. In a nutshell, that's what the great coaches do! Suffice to say, Olajuwon and Drexler would probably not be included in the Top 50 basketball players in NBA history, were it not for Guy V. Lewis.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:08 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by bigtex View Post
You're now differentiating between coaches and players, when before you clearly defined the HOF acceptance criteria as "no ring no induction" without a line of separation between coaches and players. How convenient! What made you backtrack?

The expectations are the same whether the person is a coach or a player. If a player can gain admission to the HOF without a "ring," then a coach can as well!
Those are YOUR expectations. Guy didn't get inducted. I can understand why he isn't. I guess we can't "ALL AGREE" and the people with the vote, don't agree with you. Perhaps next year .

BTW, is Tark the Shark inducted?
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:38 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by gnadfly View Post
Perhaps next year.
I don't believe we will have to wait until next year. This is Guy V's year!
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:49 PM   #20
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Are you saying, BTLD, that Wisconsin is "trending" Guy V?
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:19 PM   #21
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He doesn't know what he's saying. He doesn't know what I'm saying. He's on some Guy V Lewis jag. Guy V a great post up coach - get real. He recruited some very good, no great, big man talent. Hakeem, Elvin, Cadillac, etc all made great improvement after they left UofH and went to the NBA. Its like LSU's coach Brown being a great post up coach after recruiting Shaq or Wooden with Jabbar and Walton.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:51 PM   #22
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I have seen a few college bball games and remember that game between "Cougar High" and UCLA in Houston

I grew up with Henry Iba

on the subject of black athletes, the old Big 8 Conference was one of the first, I would have to check the Big 10, to see who was first to recruit them

anyway, one of the greatest moments in my life was sit in the middle of six Big 8 coaches during an Orange Bowl game when Nebraska played Alabama. Alabama had zero black athletes and Nebraska killed them

btw, Eddie Sutton's wife passed away 2 days ago of a massive stroke
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:37 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnadfly View Post
He doesn't know what he's saying. He doesn't know what I'm saying. He's on some Guy V Lewis jag. Guy V a great post up coach - get real. He recruited some very good, no great, big man talent. Hakeem, Elvin, Cadillac, etc all made great improvement after they left UofH and went to the NBA. Its like LSU's coach Brown being a great post up coach after recruiting Shaq or Wooden with Jabbar and Walton.
Did you actually include Cadillac Anderson in the same sentence with Olajuwon and Hayes? REALLY?

Hayes wasnt the center on that team, either. Do you remember who it was (without Googling him? He as an Olympian).

Cadillac Anderson? REALLY?

Ollie Taylor was more post player than Cadillac... And he was 6-2
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Old 01-10-2013, 01:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gnadfly View Post
He doesn't know what he's saying. He doesn't know what I'm saying. He's on some Guy V Lewis jag. Guy V a great post up coach - get real. He recruited some very good, no great, big man talent. Hakeem, Elvin, Cadillac, etc all made great improvement after they left UofH and went to the NBA. Its like LSU's coach Brown being a great post up coach after recruiting Shaq or Wooden with Jabbar and Walton.
I know exactly what I'm sayin'. In fact, my thoughts are no different than the things being said by Cougar Insiders such as: The Big E, The Dream, Clyde the Glide, Otis Birdsong, Jim Nantz and even Carl Lewis. I will accept their opinions about Guy V over yours, any time and/or any day!

Speaking of The Big E, here is what he had to say! "The career which I had in the NBA and throughout my college career was due to Guy Lewis, because he brought me here and molded me," Hayes said. "He prepared me."

Big E using words such as "molded" and "prepared" are terms most of us should be able to understand! Unfortunately, most but not all, there always seems to be a few "Gnadfly's" buzzing around the crowd!

Just sayin'

http://seattletimes.com/html/sports/...rnotebook.html

Players gather in support of Houston's Guy Lewis

By The Associated Press
The Associated Press

Players from each of the five Final Four teams of former Houston coach Guy V. Lewis gathered Friday to honor the coach and share a unified message.

Elvin Hayes to Clyde Drexler are among those outraged that the 89-year-old, who won 592 games with the Cougars, has not been inducted into the Naismith Memorial Hall of Fame.

"I think it's shameful," Hayes said. "We have three players in the Hall of Fame, three players on the NBA 50 greatest team, five Final Fours and how can you tell me that coach is not one of the greatest coaches and one of the greatest minds in basketball? It's a travesty."

Lewis has been confined to a wheelchair and has had trouble speaking since suffering a stroke in 2002. But the coach smiled broadly and chuckled often during the hour-long program.

"Well I tell you it's a big, big, big thing to me," he said before the program began.

He was inducted into the College Basketball Hall of Fame in 2007.

Lewis, who coach at Houston from 1956-86, took a Hayes-led team to two Final Fours in the late '60s and Drexler and Phi Slama Jama to three in a row from 1982-84.
His teams made the finals two times but never won it all.

Drexler can't understand why Lewis hasn't been given the nod.

"There's no plausible explanation for him not being there," Drexler said. "I think as much as any other coach in the history of college basketball coach Lewis deserves to be there. He's as good as John Wooden. He's as good as Dean Smith."

It wasn't just basketball players who joined Lewis on the Houston campus Friday. Former Cougar track star and Olympic gold medalist Carl Lewis also joined the party.
"I feel a sense of guilt that he's not in," Lewis said. "I think it's our fault. Why are we not making the case for our coach?

Older players such as Hayes feel Lewis should be included as much for what he did in leading the integration of basketball in the South as for his wins.
"The career which I had in the NBA and throughout my college career was due to Guy Lewis, because he brought me here and molded me," Hayes said. "He prepared me."

Lewis was the man who had the idea for No. 2 Houston to play Lew Alcindor and top-ranked UCLA in the Astrodome in 1968 in what was known as the "Game of the Century." Hayes and Houston beat the Bruins 71-69 in the first college basketball game played in a dome and first regular-season game broadcast nationwide.
The success of that game helped the Astrodome earn the chance to host the 1971 Final Four and led to the increased use of domed stadiums for major basketball tournaments.
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:00 PM   #25
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I would agree that the "no ring, no induction" factor, that while maybe not openly stated, is a key fact with some of the voters.

There are a lot of great players in all sports that haven't been inducted to their respective Halls, ring or not.

I can see it as a tie-breaker since the number of inductees are limited.
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