trouble in Utopia? shoot the messenger !

[Guest050715-1]

[QUOTE=Randy4Candy;1051932732]Uh, Jerry Falwell founded the Moral Majority and Liberty University, not Pukin' Pat.

I know that. It's a compound direct object in an otherwise uncomplicated sentance structure. As I tried to explain to you. I don't like Pat Robertson OR the Moral Majority.

[QUOTE=Randy4Candy;1051932732]The cut'n'paste remark was directed at COsFb, not you. However, it was a complex sentence in structure.

Fair enough.

Originally Posted by Randy4Candy

Actually, most of the FFs were wealthy and well educated members of the upper class. They also established a system under which you, Olivia, as a female would neither be allowed to vote nor directly participate in.

Nevertheless. What exactly would have been your proposal to form a republic in the late 18th Century. It's a question of the times. Jesus preached a philosophy of tolerance and love. Saul formed a religion of his own making.

[bojulay]

[QUOTE=OliviaHoward;1051933034][QUOTE=Randy4Candy;1051932732]Uh, Jerry Falwell founded the Moral Majority and Liberty University, not Pukin' Pat.

I know that. It's a compound direct object in an otherwise uncomplicated sentance structure. As I tried to explain to you. I don't like Pat Robertson OR the Moral Majority.

Originally Posted by Randy4Candy

The cut'n'paste remark was directed at COsFb, not you. However, it was a complex sentence in structure.

Fair enough.



Nevertheless. What exactly would have been your proposal to form a republic in the late 18th Century. It's a question of the times. Jesus preached a philosophy of tolerance and love. Saul formed a religion of his own making.

Gotta call BS on that one Olivia. Jesus claimed that he was the only way to get to heaven, Paul claimed that Jesus was the only way to get to heaven
as well.

Christ didn't advocate violence and said people were free to make their
choice as they will, but still claimed that he was the only choice.
The age of grace as it is known.

When the age of grace is over, the time of Gods judgement will come.

Hey don't blame me, it's what the bible says, just relaying info here.

According to the bible, there will be no redemption for those that
take the mark of the beast during the time of the Anti-Christ, and
Christ will return to destroy all of his enemies with a sword out of
his mouth with blood running as high as a horses bit and all that
nasty stuff.

No real tolerance there that I can see, only maybe if free will
allowed is tolerance I suppose.

Hey, it wasn't my idea.

[CuteOldGuy]

Actually, the Bible was drafted by a committee appointed by Emperor Constantine with the intent of making it the state religion. Jesus, nor Paul, ever advocated a "book of rules". It was purely a governmental decree, with an eye on controlling the people. There are plenty of other contemporary writings out there which paint a completely different picture of the teachings of Jesus.

The Bible ruined Christianity.

Btw, the "Beast" was Nero. Happened long ago.

[Randy4Candy]

Wholly shirt! Give me a physical break! This turn into religion is great! Politics AND Religion, together again......Arrrrgggggghhhhhhhh !

And, as ever, COsFb's spouting mind control - again. Put your fucking tinfoil hat back on, adjust your mother's bathrobe to cover your "package" of tic-tacs and go back to sleep.

Either that or cut'n'paste where it is written what you say, er, um, someplace other than in the Bible.

I'm trying to get you to 15K posts before midnight.

[CuteOldGuy]

What's funny is RaggedyAndy defending the Bible.

Is it not true that the Bible was not put together until Constantine?

I didn't bring this up, Boujalay did. Why aren't you questioning his sources?

[bojulay]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

Actually, the Bible was drafted by a committee appointed by Emperor Constantine with the intent of making it the state religion. Jesus, nor Paul, ever advocated a "book of rules". It was purely a governmental decree, with an eye on controlling the people. There are plenty of other contemporary writings out there which paint a completely different picture of the teachings of Jesus.

The Bible ruined Christianity.

Btw, the "Beast" was Nero. Happened long ago.

Sorry COG, I love yuh man but you're wrong on this one.

There are many manuscripts from the first and second century
that contain parts of the canonized biblical gospels. One of the best
is the Bodmer Papyri which contains thirty one leaves of the
gospel of Luke and a large portion of Johns gospel, and it dates
from the second century, Constantine wasn't around till the third.
Also the much earlier Muratorian Fragment list the four canonized
gospels.

Constantine didn't invent Christianity, but he did try and
hijack it for his own purposes you could say.

Also he didn't make it a state religion as some think and
he wasn't the one that chose the books that were canonized.

But yes he did try and use it for his own purposes, him and about
a thousand other people after him, a pretty big crowd.

What one could consider the earliest gospel can still be found
in the Bible. God won out over mans attempts to prevent it,
imagine that.

Marcion is a good reference as well, he tried to deviate from
the accepted gospel of the time and was declared a heretic
by the second century church. He was before Constantine.

[CuteOldGuy]

I'm not doubting the accuracy of the texts, but I question why certain ones were chosen over another, and deemed the "only Word of God". That was at the insistence of Constantine. Nowhere in either Testament was there a reference to a book that would be authoritative. In my opinion, the texts were chosen because they represented a particular point of view, one approved of by Constantine, not necessarily God. There were a number of factions that thought the others were heretics. The sect that collected the writing which became the Bible was simply one of them. The one Constantine wanted to survive.

If you believe the Bible, there are many good things in it. But there is also the hatred of gays, the subjugation of women, and lots of genocide in the Old Testament. Is that God, really? Killing children? Exterminating races?

Jesus even referenced the Book of Enoch. But that wasn't good enough to convince the Constantine disciples to include it in the Scripture.

And Boujalay, I respect you as well, and I don't mean this in a flaming or insulting way, but if you believe the way you do about the Bible, why are you here? This place does not seem to be a conducive place to practice evangelical Christianity.

I'm not an atheist, but I am also not a religionist. I think religions are centers of power. They demand adherence to a certain set of beliefs, under penalty of eternal punishment. And, of course, they each have their own set of beliefs, which are the "will of God as revealed to them." Religion is about control.

Anyway, like I said, no disrespect intended. You're a good guy. We may just disagree here.

[LordBeaverbrook]

Yaaawwwwnnnn. COG, for once you are right, religion is about control. Boj didn't say he believed in any particular "way...about the Bible" that I read, but merely stated the historical facts as best they are known about early Christianity.
Prior to the 4th Century (probably the Synod of Hippo Regius) the Canon was in flux (meaning there were lots of other gospels and text extant), though there were collections that mirrored the present New Testament from about 200AD on. The Bible made Christianity, but pretty much also ruined it too (once it was under central control and the texts were agreed to and controlled as well). Once there was an agreed Canon the all male hierarchy were free to add all sorts of silly things like Mary's Immaculate Conception, the Trinity (4th Lateran Council), celibate priests (many of whom enjoy buggering little boys) and such like. I love the interpretation that if Joseph didn't have marital relations with Mary before she became pregnant with Jesus, then it must have been a virgin birth (no other more plausible explanation? Really?) LOL. Wouldn't do to have a bastard Savior now would it?

BTW, back to politics for a sec. Politics as practised by the Republicans lately has pretty much been a religion because they make shit up and tell themselves the same stuff and just ignore anyone or anything that might contradict their "beliefs" because that would be inconvenient. Doubt they will be able to change that trend anytime soon though. No wonder they lost and didn't see it coming, but finally they got what they deserved. Hope it continues for a while yet.

Oh, and religion will be in vogue and with us for a long long time to come because there will always be that large segment of the population that doesn't like uncertainty and wants to be told what to think and do as long as they have some nice little fairy tales about where they go when they die (no one knows of course, but most likely worm dirt) that is comforting and keeps them from actually having to think.

[bojulay]

Just a seeker of truth really, and I like to know the real story
behind things. The only Jesus we are presented with can only
be one of three things and the biggest one ever when you consider
the place he has taken in history.

Biggest liar ever on the stage of history.

Biggest nut ever on the stage of history.

Or, who he claimed to be.

People will often site the other gospels (The Gnostic Gospels)
but few people bother to read or study any of them, they
all have Jesus being even more of a God than the four
canonized gospels, with his human nature only an illusion.

If anyone will bother to study about the Gnostic's it isn't
hard to see why there versions of the gospel were not
chosen.

The modern and popular version of Jesus as a good and
wise teacher isn't really a choice that can be had ether,
given what he said and the claims that he made about himself.

To call him good and wise would be to say he was telling
the truth in the claims that he made, which was to equal
himself with God. That is just an honest understanding
of the man.

One of the most striking things to me has always been
the fact that all of his apostles except John died a terrible
martyrs death while proclaiming what they believed.
What could have been their motivation for doing so,
certainly wasn't money, possibly fame, what fame
people wanted to kill them all the time, more like
infamy.

Seems to me that they believed for themselves what
they were proclaiming to be true, and they were the ones
that had the closest contact with Jesus.