Evolution? Intelligent Design? God did it all in 7 days?

[forumguy456987]

Other than "it's complex so it's designed, obviously." What proof is there? Lets try to cite reliable and nonfiction sources. Can you PROVE that it wasn't a big bang? How did God do such a masterful job in designing organisms but fuck up so hard to let his very first humans to fuck it all up in the garden of eden? Weren't we designed in his image? What a fuck up.

Complexity is the centerpiece of God's mysterious, inefficient, and breathtakingly cruel plan. It all makes sense now, I'm converted.

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by forumguy456987

Other than "it's complex so it's designed, obviously." What proof is there? Lets try to cite reliable and nonfiction sources. Can you PROVE that it wasn't a big bang? How did God do such a masterful job in designing organisms but fuck up so hard to let his very first humans to fuck it all up in the garden of eden? Weren't we designed in his image? What a fuck up.

Complexity is the centerpiece of God's mysterious, inefficient, and breathtakingly cruel plan. It all makes sense now, I'm converted.

I'm not saying anything about God's nature. I'm only saying, that to me, it seems obvious that there has to be some sort of supernatural intelligence to account for the world as it is.

For the record, I'm also baffled why a loving omnipotent God would allow so much suffering. Deists, like Ben Franklin, believe that God created the world and then sort of disengaged and left it to us humans to run things. Maybe that's how it is.

[CuteOldGuy]

I am not a Biblical creationist by any stretch, Genesis is primarily myth and allegory. Neither am I an evolutionist, for many of the reasons WE raises. Why is so important to some of you that it either be one or the other?

And yes, this is one area where you may call me a fence sitter. I'm not taking a side. The reason is, neither side of the fence has convinced me it is the right one, but I'm open to the possibilities. It really doesn't matter, so I'm wondering why all the vitriol. This is one of those things we will never know with certainty.

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

The Giraffe as we know it today has a flap around it's brain that cuts off at the right time- because the giraffe neck is so long when it bend it's neck down to take a sip of water and brinks it back up- if it didn't have the mechanism it would pass out everytime from a rapid drop in blood pressure. So my question is if it was "evolved" than there had to a period of time when the giraffe didn't have the mechanism and when it was drinking water it heard a lion approaching, lifted it's head and Bam the giraffe passed out and was eaten by the lion- so how did the gene get passed on if it was passing out and getting eaten every time????

You assume the long neck developed bofore the flap. Not necessarily so. Such a flap would have advantages even if it just prevented dizyness, for that would create a slight survival % preference over those who didn't. And before that, a partial flap. You erroniously argue that all the current atributes of the giraffe would have been in place save one, "and therefore he'd get eaten". Not necessarily true.

You are impossible to discuss things with because you are blind to any argument based upon statistics. You want complete determinism, and that is not the game the universe plays. Not in thermodynamics, nor quantum mechanics. The casinos do not have to win 100% of the slot pulls to make you poor and them rich, a 51%/49% advantage will do quite well. So it is with evolution given enough time. And sometimes, it doesn't even take a lot of time. Read about the history of corn from prehistoic times to now.

[CuteOldGuy]

Thought this might be interesting:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science...mexico-122712/

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by CuteOldGuy

I am not a Biblical creationist by any stretch, Genesis is primarily myth and allegory. Neither am I an evolutionist, for many of the reasons WE raises. Why is so important to some of you that it either be one or the other?

And yes, this is one area where you may call me a fence sitter. I'm not taking a side. The reason is, neither side of the fence has convinced me it is the right one, but I'm open to the possibilities. It really doesn't matter, so I'm wondering why all the vitriol. This is one of those things we will never know with certainty.

When I say that evolution, by itself, isn't sufficient to account for the complexity of life, people assume I'm a creationist; I'm not. A literal belief in the Genesis story is silly. I also think it's just as silly to think that life somehow just happened without intelligent design.

Total chaos doesn't morph into unimaginably complex sophisticated designs by accident. It doesn't matter how long you have for evolution to turn amino acids into a giraffe; it's not going to happen.

They taught us kids in school between the recess breaks
That the universe just sorta fell together like a Big Mistake
It started with a bang that sent the pieces flying
Then it cooled and twirled into dinosaurs and dandelions

David Wilcox
From the song: "Big Mistake"

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

When I say that evolution, by itself, isn't sufficient to account for the complexity of life, people assume I'm a creationist; I'm not. A literal belief in the Genesis story is silly. I also think it's just as silly to think that life somehow just happened without intelligent design.

Total chaos doesn't morph into unimaginably complex sophisticated designs by accident. It doesn't matter how long you have for evolution to turn amino acids into a giraffe; it's not going to happen.

They taught us kids in school between the recess breaks
That the universe just sorta fell together like a Big Mistake
It started with a bang that sent the pieces flying
Then it cooled and twirled into dinosaurs and dandelions

David Wilcox
From the song: "Big Mistake"

Joe the way I always look at it is you have to realize the Bible was written many thousands of years ago so to interpret in today's terms you will get a lost of things lot in translation. Did God create the earth and living things in 7 days as we see it or 7 days to God? I certainly don't think 7 days in God's years are the same as hours.
Also, for the most part the Bible tells a lot of prophecy- if hypothetically these "prophets" were given visions of things that were going to happen thousands of years later- they would have a difficult time describing tanks/warplanes/tv's etc because they have never seen one before. Again if in 2013 an airplane was to land on a primitive island where the inhabitants never seen a plane before how would they describe the plane- perhaps as a huge bird- there's a famous incident that happened in WW II where a plane landed on a primitive island and the inhabitants started worshipping the plane because they never seen a plane. A lot of the Bible is misunderstood translation. For example ask the average question/jew/ or muslim what does an Angel look like and many will see a human with bird wings attached to their back- when that is simply not true- the Bible never states Angels have bird wings. The modern thought is that Angel are perhaps what we nowadays call ET's or Aliens. The literal meaning of "Angel" is messenger- if they are messengers how would they get around???? You would have to be a fool to believe they flap their wings and fly around like superman. Also, in the Bible it mentions that some Angels came to earth and mated with humans and had offspring- who knows what that race was or became- people really have to open their eyes.

COG- that skeleton you posted there have been similar findings in other countries- also King Tut's Father :Akhenaten, had a very elongated head- scientist have dismmissed it as a ritual called cranial deformation- but they can't explain how it spread to various countries and cultures that were thousands of years apart.

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by Old-T

You assume the long neck developed bofore the flap. Not necessarily so. Such a flap would have advantages even if it just prevented dizyness, for that would create a slight survival % preference over those who didn't. And before that, a partial flap. You erroniously argue that all the current atributes of the giraffe would have been in place save one, "and therefore he'd get eaten". Not necessarily true.

You are impossible to discuss things with because you are blind to any argument based upon statistics. You want complete determinism, and that is not the game the universe plays. Not in thermodynamics, nor quantum mechanics. The casinos do not have to win 100% of the slot pulls to make you poor and them rich, a 51%/49% advantage will do quite well. So it is with evolution given enough time. And sometimes, it doesn't even take a lot of time. Read about the history of corn from prehistoic times to now.

OLD T what I assuming is not an assumption it's basically what evolutionist believe- they believe the giraffe once had a short neck and for it to survive with other animals for food it started reaching it's neck out to eat taller leaves/shrubs and that's how the long neck evolved- I call that Bullshit for reasons I have explained. Did the snake venom evolved? That's what evolutionist believe - so again how does "venom" become evolved over thousands of years??? Some evolutionist believe the venom evolved in order to allow the snake to survive because it became a lethal weapon.
Hmmmm can evolutionist explain why the Box Jelly Fish which doesn't have a brain and eats very tiny fish and I mean tiny about the size of your pinky , but has the most deadly venom/toxic in the marine world- why????

[JCM800]

Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

Hmmmm can evolutionist explain why the Box Jelly Fish which doesn't have a brain and eats very tiny fish and I mean tiny about the size of your pinky , but has the most deadly venom/toxic in the marine world- why????

we're all waiting....

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

Joe the way I always look at it is you have to realize the Bible was written many thousands of years ago so to interpret in today's terms you will get a lost of things lot in translation. Did God create the earth and living things in 7 days as we see it or 7 days to God? I certainly don't think 7 days in God's years are the same as hours.
Also, for the most part the Bible tells a lot of prophecy- if hypothetically these "prophets" were given visions of things that were going to happen thousands of years later- they would have a difficult time describing tanks/warplanes/tv's etc because they have never seen one before. Again if in 2013 an airplane was to land on a primitive island where the inhabitants never seen a plane before how would they describe the plane- perhaps as a huge bird- there's a famous incident that happened in WW II where a plane landed on a primitive island and the inhabitants started worshipping the plane because they never seen a plane. A lot of the Bible is misunderstood translation. For example ask the average question/jew/ or muslim what does an Angel look like and many will see a human with bird wings attached to their back- when that is simply not true- the Bible never states Angels have bird wings. The modern thought is that Angel are perhaps what we nowadays call ET's or Aliens. The literal meaning of "Angel" is messenger- if they are messengers how would they get around???? You would have to be a fool to believe they flap their wings and fly around like superman. Also, in the Bible it mentions that some Angels came to earth and mated with humans and had offspring- who knows what that race was or became- people really have to open their eyes.

COG- that skeleton you posted there have been similar findings in other countries- also King Tut's Father :Akhenaten, had a very elongated head- scientist have dismmissed it as a ritual called cranial deformation- but they can't explain how it spread to various countries and cultures that were thousands of years apart.

The Aztec king Montezuma thought Cortez was a god when the Spanish invaded Mexico, party because of the large sailing ships they arrived in. The Aztecs had never seen any like them.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke

[forumguy456987]

Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

Hmmmm can evolutionist explain why the Box Jelly Fish which doesn't have a brain and eats very tiny fish and I mean tiny about the size of your pinky , but has the most deadly venom/toxic in the marine world- why????

Can the creationists explain its existence? why would he have given defensive abilities to any creature? simply making it not be prey would have been far simpler. But God doesn't do simple, or stop things from being killed.

[I B Hankering]

Originally Posted by joe bloe

The Aztec king Montezuma thought Cortez was a god when the Spanish invaded Mexico, party because of the large sailing ships they arrived in. The Aztecs had never seen any like them.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
Arthur C. Clarke

Another theory is that the Aztecs had seen something like that before, which served to reinforce that 'wrong' opinion:

Swedish-Mexican professor Gustavo Nelin believes the Nahuatl legend of Quetzalcoatl, a feathered serpent who sometimes appeared as a light-skinned man wearing a beard, was based on dragon headed Viking ships that may have coasted along the shores of the Yucatan centuries ago. Nelin's theory is that the Vikings were led by one Ari Marson who, according to the Norse Sagas, disappeared with eleven ships en route to Greenland at the time of Eric the Red.


http://books.google.com/books?id=Eh1...ed=0CDcQ6AEwAQ

http://www.nordicway.com/search/Plac..._Caribbean.htm

[joe bloe]

Originally Posted by I B Hankering

Another theory is that the Aztecs had seen something like that before, which served to reinforce that 'wrong' opinion:

Swedish-Mexican professor Gustavo Nelin believes the Nahuatl legend of Quetzalcoatl, a feathered serpent who sometimes appeared as a light-skinned man wearing a beard, was based on dragon headed Viking ships that may have coasted along the shores of the Yucatan centuries ago. Nelin's theory is that the Vikings were led by one Ari Marson who, according to the Norse Sagas, disappeared with eleven ships en route to Greenland at the time of Eric the Red.


http://books.google.com/books?id=Eh1...ed=0CDcQ6AEwAQ

http://www.nordicway.com/search/Plac..._Caribbean.htm

Fascinating

[Old-T]

Originally Posted by wellendowed1911

OLD T what I assuming is not an assumption it's basically what evolutionist believe- they believe the giraffe once had a short neck and for it to survive with other animals for food it started reaching it's neck out to eat taller leaves/shrubs and that's how the long neck evolved-
Yes, EVOLVED. Slowly changed over time because the environmemt they lived in gradually favored those with longer necks who could reach food that was not as highly contested. More food enabled the slightly longer necks to survive at a higher rate, and that natural variation (longer necks) was passed on a little more in the gene pool than shorter necked ones. In the next generation there was a natural statistical distribution around the new mean, and again those with a little longer still nexk had exclusive access to leaves--therefore more energy, escape lions, see farther, etc. Repeat for many generations. With a little basic math it's not hard. Now the WHY of all this (not the HOW) I have no problem with you or anyone else attributing to god. But I for one do not believe god intentionally places lots of false facts in front of us just to confuse us.

I call that Bullshit for reasons I have explained.
Yes, you still want to think of evolution as an abrupt jump: mommy giraffe had a short neck and baby's neck was 4 feet longer in one generation. You explained, you were wrong then. You are happy to remain wrong.

Did the snake venom evolved? That's what evolutionist believe - so again how does "venom" become evolved over thousands of years???
The same way as the long next. Slowly. In the same was the slightly more toxic plants (or more disgusting tasting, thornier, etc) get eaten by only the more desperate animans, so more of those plants survive. They reproduce and slightly tilt the percentages in the generation's distribution. Again, the slightly more toxic of them survive. Repeat.

Some evolutionist believe the venom evolved in order to allow the snake to survive because it became a lethal weapon.
Hmmmm can evolutionist explain why the Box Jelly Fish which doesn't have a brain and eats very tiny fish and I mean tiny about the size of your pinky , but has the most deadly venom/toxic in the marine world- why????
Same argument as the plants above. You buy a car for it's sex appeal. Someone else buys it for transportation. But you both get a car. Same with toxcicity. It serves multiple purposes.

[wellendowed1911]

Originally Posted by Old-T

Old T if what you saying i true than why does the Coral snake have deadly venom yet the look a like scarlett kingsnake is non venemous- why didn't the scarlet king snake develop venom?

Where is the proof that there lived a short neck giraffe and if there were other animals competing for food why is there not another animal with a similar long neck as GIRAFFE?

Do you honestly think an elephant's trunk is a act of evolution or is it a genius design?

I would love to hear your response on the woodpecker and the mimic octopus?