Evil won in New York

[Diligaf]

Good thing for the rest of us that Larry changed his flight that day.

[txdot-guy]

If what happened to Trump in New York is considered evil, I would call it karma myself, it’s pretty far down the evil scale. The holocaust, Stalin’s purges of his own people, the rape of Nanking, The Rwandan genocide. All way more evil. Someone needs to dial down the rhetoric.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by texassapper

Here's how the ballot box and the jury box work. The Texas state legislature passes a law that makes seeing a prostitute a state jail felony. You get busted for seeing a hooker. You demand your right to a jury trial. The judge or the prosecutor asks prospective jurors whether they're willing to find in accordance with the law. Presumably any of us answering that question truthfully will say "hell no." We believe it's a stupid law, that puts people in jail for a victimless crime. So presumably none of us would be selected for the jury. The jurors that are selected are willing to follow the law and put people in jail for a stupid, victimless crime.

The same thing happened to Trump. The state of New York accused him of falsifying business records. And yes, he was involved in falsifying business records. The jury found in accordance with the laws. Laws that apparently allow you to convict a person of felonies for covering up payments to a porn star or mistress.

Who was the victim here? Michael Cohen ripped off Trump for $60,000. Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal got around $150,000 each. The state of New York and the U.S. federal government were paid taxes on Cohen's "income". Taxes that shouldn't have been paid because Trump was reimbursing Cohen, not paying him for legal work. There was a victim here though, Donald Trump, who paid the money. And he's the one found guilty on 34 felony charges.

Circling back to the topic at hand, this isn't evil. But it is fucked up. Our whole criminal justice system is fucked up, which is a large part of why the USA is always near the top in our per capita incarceration rate.

[eyecu2]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Here's how the ballot box and the jury box work. The Texas state legislature passes a law that makes seeing a prostitute a state jail felony. You get busted for seeing a hooker. You demand your right to a jury trial. The judge or the prosecutor asks prospective jurors whether they're willing to find in accordance with the law. Presumably any of us answering that question truthfully will say "hell no." We believe it's a stupid law, that puts people in jail for a victimless crime. So presumably none of us would be selected for the jury. The jurors that are selected are willing to follow the law and put people in jail for a stupid, victimless crime.

The same thing happened to Trump. The state of New York accused him of falsifying business records. And yes, he was involved in falsifying business records. The jury found in accordance with the laws. Laws that apparently allow you to convict a person of felonies for covering up payments to a porn star or mistress.

Who was the victim here? Michael Cohen ripped off Trump for $60,000. Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal got around $150,000 each. The state of New York and the U.S. federal government were paid taxes on Cohen's "income". Taxes that shouldn't have been paid because Trump was reimbursing Cohen, not paying him for legal work. There was a victim here though, Donald Trump, who paid the money. And he's the one found guilty on 34 felony charges.

Circling back to the topic at hand, this isn't evil. But it is fucked up. Our whole criminal justice system is fucked up, which is a large part of why the USA is always near the top in our per capita incarceration rate.

Tiny- I will concede that crimes don't always have victims per se, but in the case of those mentioned above- should they be also tried on crimes of extortion or blackmail??

I say hell yes.

If Cohen coerced Trump or anyone, or the same with Stormy or McDougal, or any of them suggesting "pay me or else"., I'd be all for Trump suing them. That is in line with the law, if it's maligning or false. But it's equally fair to say, those 1st amendment rights to say what happened is also in play. But extortion is still illegal. If Cohen took 60k, he needs to pay it back and still face charges.

I'm not for anyone bending laws that are there to protect citizens and people of this country. The perversion of the perfection of laws is what has happened. Technically- Trump broke laws, and he's the only one being charged. All those other people and laws you suggest being broken, need to be vetted and determined if they were/are illegal too.

Equal application of the law- for all.

NOT everyone Except TRUMP. He's gotten so many passes on law breaking- bending or distortion, that it means nothing to him.

that's the problem.

[txdot-guy]

Trump never learned the lesson that most of us do in grade school. You can’t keep pissing people off and not expect a beating in return. His status and money has kept him from culpability for too damn long. He’s a douche bag who has brought all this bad karma on himself. If it takes some novel application of the law to do it then so be it.

At the end of the day he will still have more money than most of us will ever see and he will still be in control of the republican party. I certainly won’t be shedding any tears for him.

[farmstud60]

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

Trump never learned the lesson that most of us do in grade school. You can’t keep pissing people off and not expect a beating in return. His status and money has kept him from culpability for too damn long. He’s a douche bag who has brought all this bad karma on himself. If it takes some novel application of the law to do it then so be it.

At the end of the day he will still have more money than most of us will ever see and he will still be in control of the republican party. I certainly won’t be shedding any tears for him.

You don't get it, the Democrats never ever followed the U.S. Constitution and denied Trump witnesses to put on a defense plus they never even charged him with an actual crime. It totally destroyed any type of fairness in the legal system.

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

You don't get it, the Democrats never ever followed the U.S. Constitution and denied Trump witnesses to put on a defense plus they never even charged him with an actual crime. It totally destroyed any type of fairness in the legal system.

That's utter BS. Not a bit of that is true.

[adav8s28]

Originally Posted by farmstud60

Truthfully we are probably at the end of the United States as a great country. We certainly don't have equal application of the law.

Trump hooked up with a porn actress. He then had his attourney/fixer make a payment to Ms Stormy Daniels. Then tried to cover it up so that he would not lose votes from the evanglicals in the 2016 election. He would have beat the case except for his fixer ratted on him.

I agree with you that the chargers should have remained a mis-demeanor instead of a felony.

The DA of NYC answers to no one including the Attorney General of Ny. Biden and the democrats had nothing to do with D.A. Bragg. Trump gets himself into trouble he can't help it.

Trump then had the QB for the Pittsburgh Steelers take Stormy Daniels b ack to her hotel room and then told guys on the golf course the next day to try out Daniels. LOL. That is who you want for your president?

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by eyecu2

Tiny- I will concede that crimes don't always have victims per se, but in the case of those mentioned above- should they be also tried on crimes of extortion or blackmail??

I say hell yes.

If Cohen coerced Trump or anyone, or the same with Stormy or McDougal, or any of them suggesting "pay me or else"., I'd be all for Trump suing them. That is in line with the law, if it's maligning or false. But it's equally fair to say, those 1st amendment rights to say what happened is also in play. But extortion is still illegal. If Cohen took 60k, he needs to pay it back and still face charges.

I'm not for anyone bending laws that are there to protect citizens and people of this country. The perversion of the perfection of laws is what has happened. Technically- Trump broke laws, and he's the only one being charged. All those other people and laws you suggest being broken, need to be vetted and determined if they were/are illegal too.

That's not exactly what I'm getting at Eyecu2. I'd like to see fewer people in jail and otherwise shunted through our criminal justice system. Trump successfully pursued a civil case against Stormy Daniels, and maybe now could too against Michael Cohen if the statute of limitations hasn't expired.

Originally Posted by eyecu2

Equal application of the law- for all.

NOT everyone Except TRUMP. He's gotten so many passes on law breaking- bending or distortion, that it means nothing to him.

that's the problem.

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

Trump never learned the lesson that most of us do in grade school. You can’t keep pissing people off and not expect a beating in return. His status and money has kept him from culpability for too damn long. He’s a douche bag who has brought all this bad karma on himself. If it takes some novel application of the law to do it then so be it.

At the end of the day he will still have more money than most of us will ever see and he will still be in control of the republican party. I certainly won’t be shedding any tears for him.

Trump did get a lot of passes on the law, which would include issues related to some, but not all, of the following.

1. He lost $900 million of bondholders money
2. He didn't repay hundreds of millions of loans from banks
3. He shortchanged and sometimes just didn't pay contractors and other service providers
4. He persuaded Fred Trump to give and bequest more to him than his brothers and sisters
5. He probably caused appraisers and others to massively underestimate the value of Fred's estate, saving many millions in estate taxes
6. He probably misled appraisal districts and the like as to the value of his properties, to save on tax.
7. He was complicit in the Trump University scam
8. He probably tried to hold up U.S. aid to Ukraine until certain bogus and questionable claims were investigated -- claims related to Hillary Clinton's computers and Crowd Strike and Joe Biden's involvement with Burisma.
9. He tried to steal the 2020 election from Joe Biden

I imagine there were no violations of the law related to some of these incidents. And Trump did have to pay up for some as well, like Trump University. But they had victims. Even item "9", which has resulted in jail time and probated sentences for some of his strongest supporters, and injuries to Capitol police. If he's going to be prosecuted for criminal or civil violations, these are the sort of things prosecutors should have gone after. Real crimes. Not paying off a porn star.

We have the rule of law in the United States of America. It's one of the main reasons America is a more prosperous and fairer place to live than most other countries. And that rule of law has broken down in New York and is being used for political purposes.

The ends do not justify the means. You don't punish people simply because you think they deserve it. You do so because you've shown in a court that they violated laws, laws that make sense, not made up shit like New York Executive Law 63(12), or falsification of business records to pay off women who are going to blab on you otherwise.

Originally Posted by adav8s28

Trump then had the QB for the Pittsburgh Steelers take Stormy Daniels b ack to her hotel room and then told guys on the golf course the next day to try out Daniels. LOL. That is who you want for your president?

I don't know about you, but I want my president to grab women by the pussy.

[offshoredrilling]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

That's utter BS. Not a bit of that is true.

NO its true and NY is mostly evil

[Yssup Rider]

Originally Posted by offshoredrilling

NO its true and NY is mostly evil

No it’s not. It’s bullshit.

Why don’t you help your anxious buddy prove his point?

Links. Examples. Facts.

SNICK!

[txdot-guy]

Originally Posted by Tiny

We have the rule of law in the United States of America. It's one of the main reasons America is a more prosperous and fairer place to live than most other countries. And that rule of law has broken down in New York and is being used for political purposes.

The ends do not justify the means. You don't punish people simply because you think they deserve it. You do so because you've shown in a court that they violated laws, laws that make sense, not made up shit like New York Executive Law 63(12), or falsification of business records to pay off women who are going to blab on you otherwise.

Gee Tiny we get it, you don’t like some of the laws in New York. Well there are a lot of laws that I don’t like here in Texas but I still have to deal with the consequences if I break those laws. Maybe the former President shouldn’t have broken the laws in New York state if he wanted to hide a payoff.

Trump broke NY laws. He has recourse through the appeals court which I’m sure he is proceeding with already. That IS the rule of law like it or not.

[Tiny]

Originally Posted by txdot-guy

Gee Tiny we get it, you don’t like some of the laws in New York. Well there are a lot of laws that I don’t like here in Texas but I still have to deal with the consequences if I break those laws. Maybe the former President shouldn’t have broken the laws in New York state if he wanted to hide a payoff.

Trump broke NY laws. He has recourse through the appeals court which I’m sure he is proceeding with already. That IS the rule of law like it or not.

Please see my post #18 above, where I established that I hate Texas bull shit laws too. Or rather the use of laws to prosecute victimless crimes. I don't think anyone should go to jail for prostitution, or getting or performing an abortion, or consuming a certain substance we can't discuss here, or paying money to a porn star through a lawyer so she doesn't blab. The issue is a whole lot bigger than Trump. Our fundamental difference is the extent to which we believe government should control society.

[offshoredrilling]

Originally Posted by Yssup Rider

No it’s not. It’s bullshit.

Why don’t you help your anxious buddy prove his point?

Links. Examples. Facts.

SNICK!

NY "The Evil Empire' State


they are working on a bill to let felons still in vote

I bet not being done ta let Don vote for himself if they lock him up

[txdot-guy]

Originally Posted by Tiny

Please see my post #18 above, where I established that I hate Texas bull shit laws too. Or rather the use of laws to prosecute victimless crimes. I don't think anyone should go to jail for prostitution, or getting or performing an abortion, or consuming a certain substance we can't discuss here, or paying money to a porn star through a lawyer so she doesn't blab. The issue is a whole lot bigger than Trump. Our fundamental difference is the extent to which we believe government should control society.

One of the things that makes our country great is the institutional structures and laws that we’ve created over the past two centuries. Those institutions include the jury system. If the jury had voted to acquit then Trump would have gone free and could not be retried because of double jeopardy. If he wasn’t guilty then he would not have been convicted.

He had the opportunity to put on a defense a high priced defense at that. He could have shown some kind of contrition and made a deal. He had a myriad of options available to him but his choice was to lie through his teeth, badmouth the judge and his family, call the entire legal system corrupt and blame it all on the “corrupt Biden administration “. Not exactly the best example to emulate.

I’m not enamored of some of the things that occur in our institutions but they are better than most. I don’t like Trump and most of his platforms because he is trying to tear down those institutions and safeguards that make up our government.