An amusing analogy for America

[Gryphon]

Originally Posted by Clerkenwell

Don't forget the lab puppy's tendency to piss on your floor. Nor its need for constant attention and approval.

Yes, and when the Lab puppy takes down the serial killer breaking into your house (Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler) it gets scolded for making a mess in the process. And when its barking keeps a burglar (Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, et.al.) from stealing everything you own, it gets scolded for making too much noise.

[John Bull]

Originally Posted by Clerkenwell

Indeed, it's a description of Europe with limited basis in fact given that 100 years ago we had (and this is a small selection of events from a turbulent century); extant Russian, German, British and Austro-Hungarian empires, all of which evaporated as the result of either / both WW I and WW II; no welfare states; Hitler and Mussolini were treats still in store; no votes for women; etc, etc...

I said "in the last 100 years".
No welfare states in Europe? Surely you jest! The progressives in this country came by the idea from Europe. Now Europe is collapsing - again!
And who was it bailed Europe out of the two calamities? And what got Europe into those - could it have been the vaunted incrementalism?
Hitler and Mussolini fall right into my 100 year time frame and both sprang up from, oh my, incrementalism.

[Clerkenwell]

Originally Posted by Gryphon

Yes, and when the Lab puppy takes down the serial killer breaking into your house (Kaiser Wilhelm, Hitler) it gets scolded for making a mess in the process. And when its barking keeps a burglar (Stalin, Khrushchev, Brezhnev, et.al.) from stealing everything you own, it gets scolded for making too much noise.

Not round here. He gets thanked for joining the fight (usually late, but welcome anyway) just as we thanked all the allies in those contests.

But the puppy seems always to need to be specially thanked for his special contribution. He seems incapable of acknowleding that his own wonderful contribution is one amongst many. Maybe the puppy shouldn't just watch his own war films...

[Clerkenwell]

Originally Posted by John Bull

I said "in the last 100 years".
No welfare states in Europe? Surely you jest! The progressives in this country came by the idea from Europe. Now Europe is collapsing - again!
And who was it bailed Europe out of the two calamities? And what got Europe into those - could it have been the vaunted incrementalism?
Hitler and Mussolini fall right into my 100 year time frame and both sprang up from, oh my, incrementalism.

Consult a history book. The Progressives in your country led the way in arguing for welfare (good for them). Compassion in America needed no legitimacy from European ideas. Indeed, turn of the century America was probably further ahead than Europe in welfarism (I note this in admiration, not as a criticism). The UK's first serious institution in its welfare state was the social insurance introduced in 1911.

The New Deal took the USA miles ahead of most European countries in counter-cyclical Keynsian investment. You do have a welfare state despite Fox's attempts to assert the contrary. There are public schools, Medicare, Medicaid, etc, etc...

As for the canard that the USA uniquely won both wars, well, you go ahead and enjoy thinking that. Clearly the facts don't play a part in forming your judgements.

This correspondence is over. You are too dull for further jousting.

[oden]

Ok, but before you go, pay back your war debts with interest.

[Clerkenwell]

Originally Posted by oden

Ok, but before you go, pay back your war debts with interest.

Sure, will do. Should we wire it straight to your Maoist bank managers in Beijing to save you the bother?

[John Bull]

by Clerkenwell: As for the canard that the USA uniquely won both wars, well, you go ahead and enjoy thinking that. Clearly the facts don't play a part in forming your judgements.

This correspondence is over. You are too dull for further jousting.

Dear me! Is that typical European repartee'? Slam the messenger because you don't like the message. For shame...

[Guest053011]

About to board a flight, so I can only sneak in a short post:

For all the bickering in this thread - those upset seem to forget that it was one if YOUR own citizens that created the analogy - and agreed with it. An ambassador stationed in the middle east no less.

I was merely amused because North America is in it's infancy when compared to most of the world, which has hundreds to thousands of more years behind them. And being a dog owner, the puppy comparison was merely amusing, even if not accurate.

[atlcomedy]

In the midst of this so called recession, I find it reassuring that our "allies" are America bashing and getting uppity. If there was real danger, they'd be on their knees groveling for our help.

[atlcomedy]

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

About to board a flight, so I can only sneak in a short post:

For all the bickering in this thread - those upset seem to forget that it was one if YOUR own citizens that created the analogy - and agreed with it. An ambassador stationed in the middle east no less.

I was merely amused because North America is in it's infancy when compared to most of the world, which has hundreds to thousands of more years behind them. And being a dog owner, the puppy comparison was merely amusing, even if not accurate.

Pelosi is a citizen too...that doesn't make anything she says worthwhile...

Obama may be a citizen, but we're not sure....

[Guest053011]

Originally Posted by atlcomedy

Pelosi is a citizen too...that doesn't make anything she says worthwhile...

Obama may be a citizen, but we're not sure....

You're most right - but the inability to have any sense of humour and start slamming your allies - who never mad the analogy - shows a most undesirable trait in individuals, even if that doesn't reflect on the country.

[..]

Originally Posted by WTF

We are Israel. Without our backing they are short lived. Why do you think they have their grips firmly around our politicians? It is for their own survival.

Knowing Israel quite well, I strongly doubt that the US is Israel.

Just look how many useful speakers with good, if not near native Arabic language skills the US intelligence community has?
(Answer: Except for ethnic Arabs almost none.)

Israel on the other hand has plenty of non-Arabs, with a perfect command of Arabic language and customs.

Also, granted the gov't in Israel is a right-wing leaning disaster. However the media in Israel is of much better quality than in the US. (Which is actually quite ironic since in Israel, the media is actively censored by the gov't. But still better than current media in the US.)

And frankly when it comes to the question of pure survival, I see better chances for Israel than for the US.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by Clerkenwell

Utter drivel. Oh yeah, the USA 'taxes' the rest of the world. All those Eurodollars, all those deficits, all that exported monetary policy.

Drivel my ass, look at our Defense spending as a % of GDP compared to Japan, Germany, Canada, England...

Yes we reaped the benefits, wait 'till you deal with the Chinese if you think we are bad.

Originally Posted by Sensual Lina

Since we are using silly analogies ... lets say I take it upon myself to do sobriety check on all major highways in the city and enlist help of few well armed friends to do that. Noone asked me to do that, noone gave me the right to do that, but I am doing it for the greater good of fellow drivers. And if someone thinks I have no right to impose this greater good ... well too bad for them.

Should I impose sobriety check point tax on unduly harrassed drivers?


Lina

unduly harrassed, my ass.

I do not expect a drunk driver to care for a sobriety check...

Freaking drunks....always blaming the bartender or the cops!

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

For all the bickering in this thread - those upset seem to forget that it was one if YOUR own citizens that created the analogy - and agreed with it. An ambassador stationed in the middle east no less.

.

Some piss ant ambassador spouts off at a party. A stupid statement is a stupid statement no matter who says it.

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

I was merely amused because North America is in it's infancy when compared to most of the world, which has hundreds to thousands of more years behind them. And being a dog owner, the puppy comparison was merely amusing, even if not accurate.

Really? Do our women vote? Drive cars?

You think I want to give those backwards jacks credit for being ahead of us just because they are older? Think again. We are light years ahead of them. Religion has kept them in the dark ages. If you want to argue that religion is bringing this country back to their level, that has some merit.

Originally Posted by Lauren Summerhill

You're most right - but the inability to have any sense of humour and start slamming your allies - who never mad the analogy - shows a most undesirable trait in individuals, even if that doesn't reflect on the country.

No, it reflects on the country, we as individuals do not like outsiders talking shit. Every country has its own pride and prejudice, Nothing new there.

I think it BS that you try and hide your distaste for this country on something some two bit mid level government hack said.

I have plenty of things to slam this country over and do reguarly but I would tip toe lightly through a forum dominated by another country citizens were I trying discuss their fuc ups.

Do not try and credit me with some undesirable trait because you have not learnt the nuances of artful discussion of another's problems.

[WTF]

Originally Posted by ..

Knowing Israel quite well, I strongly doubt that the US is Israel.


.

Where do you think they would be without the US?

Originally Posted by ..

And frankly when it comes to the question of pure survival, I see better chances for Israel than for the US.

Well maybe we should drop our aid to Isreal then. After all it just seems to be a way to prop up our Defense industry ...we give them money, they spen that money on buying things from our Defense industry.

[Camille]

First off, let's clarify for the purposes of this thread that when Lauren's friend/co-worker/client was talking about "Europe" she was referring to the "European Union." Not even close to be being the same thing as "Europe.". Unfortunately, whether we like it or not, there are several countries in the Union that do not care for America's foreign policy....and people need to remember that when they are talking about the union..that it's 20 some plus countries, not one. Further, the union itself rarely agrees with each other about such dissenting opinions. Britain is FREQUENTLY the leader in such situations in trying to ensure that a balance is created between the US and EU. In this particular instance, the EU union negotiator leading the talks is British....there is a reason for that. Using the term "Europe" is about as out of mode as saying "America" when you actually mean, North, Central and South America. It's annoying and the union has been around long enough for people to make the distinction (and particularly someone of such a former position of US Ambassador) to prevent making such an incredically sweeping and generalised gaffe. Additionally, it's just downright insulting that a former US ambassador would make such a statement full stop. It's just terribly wrong. Good lord, wars have been started over leser comments than that.

Moving on, since this thread seems to pertain to Britian only (why??) and none of the other countries are being discussed, it's just plain wrong to suggest that Britain harbours ill feelings towards the US or has forgotten or is nonchalent about the help the Americans offered during WWII. That's utter bullshit. Second, Britain has done it's part for the US in return and continues to do so. Historically, Britian was the country that leapt of its arse after 9/11 not only to support the US BUT to embarrass the Union members that either didn't want to make a decision or were opposed to getting involved. The union has 500 million members (not including commonwealth countries too)...so I don't think that's anything to be sniffed at even if folks think that the US is stronger/better/whatever the counterpoint is. Presently, Britain, as a general rule, champions the US within the EU because they value the importance of past and potential future relations. If Britain were not in the EU then the US would be having a very different relationship with the Union. Britain know that but don't abuse it. Further, England particularly is no pussy when dealing with coalitions (even those that they need to be part of) or countries stronger than themselves. If they were, they would have shifted to the Euro a decade ago. Yes Blair was embarrassing to us but because he was so busy with Bush that he left us wide open...not because the US didn't deserve help. Thankfully, the UK seem to be on track now in terms of balancing their obligations to the EU with those of the US..and that's how it should be. As for Canada, well they are in one of the most sensitive positions of all. They are a Commonwealth country with strong ties to the US. I can't imagine it's always been easy to keep those relationships in balance.

It's not a competition where the EU or the US have to one up each other and until people grasp that working to complement each other is the only way forwards with issues such as Iran everything is moot. The US needs the EU just as much as the EU needs the US.

Finally, if this question had been posed the other way round and the Europeans were taking the stance that the US posters are on here the responses would be of a similar vein..so really, what is it that is being argued about here, because it seems that we are not that different about some issues at all? From a personal perspective, in all the time I have posted on ASPD and here, I have never been afraid to call out Britain when necessary at the cost of defending US on issues but I've never been called "fair" for doing so...but my gosh, I've been told a few times that I have been "unfair" when I have defended the UK on some of their policies at the cost of the US. There seems to be a lot of "forgetfulness" of a similiar nature, from both sides of the pond, in this thread.